Energy: Nuclear Fuel Bank

Lord Jenkin of Roding: asked Her Majesty's Government:
	What discussions they have held during 2006 with the International Atomic Energy Authority concerning the proposal for a new international nuclear fuel bank.

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, an international nuclear fuel bank is one of a number of proposals put forward as part of IAEA discussions on multilateral nuclear approaches. The UK has played an active role in these discussions. At an IAEA special event in September, we introduced a proposal for an enrichment bond, which has been widely recognised as bold and practical. UK officials recently met members of the IAEA Secretariat to discuss this proposal.

Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that I was mildly surprised to be rung up by her department to be asked what my Question was all about? However, it is serious, given the wide expectation that there will be a renaissance of civil nuclear generation across the world, given that most countries do not have direct access to uranium-enrichment facilities, and given the enthusiastic support of the IAEA for the whole concept and, I might add, the support of our own Prime Minister in a speech in Georgetown on 26 May last year. Why, then, when one reads the international press on this issue, does it seem that the Americans and the Russians are making all the running? Why are the Government not pushing their own view on this and making it public? In short, why are the Government so reluctant to come to come forward with their own proposals in public? I have seen the paper in the Library, but why can we not hear more about it?

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, first, I was not aware that my department had telephoned the noble Lord to ask what his Question was about, but I was delighted to hear the Question in any event. In relation to the UK's support for these very important proposals, as the noble Lord said, the Prime Minister endorsed them in his speech in May. We have been rather strong advocates of the approach and have made our views known to our partners. However, we want to work on very practical issues. One of those is the bond, which we think can be achieved in tandem with the nuclear fuel bank proposals. We are also having a dialogue with recipient countries. We believe that it is particularly important that recipient countries sign up to these proposals, so we are working quietly on dialogue whenever appropriate.

Lord Hannay of Chiswick: My Lords, does the Minister not recognise that her Answer to the noble Lord's Question bore a striking resemblance to the one given to me at the end of October? Could we not inject a little more urgency into this issue? Can she not give the House something like a road map—a fashionable phrase—towards a decision on this matter with some timing factor? Is it not about time that a senior Minister of this Government set out Britain's overall policy on non-proliferation matters?

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I am pleased that the Government have been so consistent in their approach to this Question. At present, the IAEA is assessing a number of proposals, including that on the nuclear fuel bank. In June, it will present a paper to the board of governors outlining the results of its assessment. Quite properly, that assessment will naturally determine our future policy on this issue.

Baroness Williams of Crosby: My Lords, does the Minister agree that, in the past few weeks, the situation has become considerably more urgent? For example, the Gulf Co-operation Council has decided to embark on a nuclear energy programme; the price of uranium has more than doubled, with the result that all kinds of miners are now coming into the field, many of them in countries which have no effective government; and, finally, there is the Russian decision to supply Iran with nuclear materials. Given all that, does the Minister accept that it is very important that the British Government take an urgent and indeed conspicuous view on the proposals for a fuel bank? Would they consider making a contribution towards financing the administration of such a bank, given that the situation is daily becoming more urgent?

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I wholly endorse the proposition that it is becoming more urgent to deal with the issue. Of course, we must deal with these urgent matters. Whatever actions are taken, it is important that they are taken with the IAEA and on the basis of its assessment, which will be forthcoming in June. On the financing of a nuclear fuel bank, we await the assessment of the IAEA, which we will have in just five months' time. I agree that the matter is urgent but we must take decisions on the basis of the best knowledge and the best advice we can get.

Lord Tomlinson: My Lords, does my noble friend agree that an imperative part of domestic energy policy is to have secure energy supplies and a balanced source of electricity generation, and that we cannot keep to our Kyoto obligations without a new generation of nuclear generated electricity? In those circumstances, while consistency might be a good thing, a little more speed in making the essential imperative decisions would also be welcome.

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I entirely agree with the proposition from my noble friend that there must be security of supply and a balanced supply, especially if we are to deliver our Kyoto obligations. The Government will bring forward an energy paper in the not too distant future which will deal with those matters. On the nuclear fuel bank and non-proliferation, it is absolutely right that we await the assessment of the International Atomic Energy Authority, as it has the most knowledge about these important issues and it is a multilateral organisation.

Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, the Minister is quite right to say that these are early days. Several different proposals are being considered—I do not know which one the Prime Minister has endorsed. Is the Minister aware of the IAEA's projection that, whereas now 16 per cent of the world's electricity is produced by nuclear power in about 30 countries, at the moment 27 new nuclear power stations are being constructed? The IAEA believes, with some justification, that there is a huge expansion ahead of carbon-free or at least low-carbon nuclear power around the world. If it is not to lead to great dangers in the proliferation of weapons-grade uranium, that will require a very close and effective monitoring system indeed. Can she reassure us that the British Government take the issue very seriously, as do Japan, America, Russia and the other leading powers and that this is probably the way forward in a world that will be predominantly nuclear as regards electricity generation?

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I entirely agree that security of supply means increased demand, which means increased fear of proliferation. The Government are working on the issues—I do not want noble Lords to think that we are doing nothing between now and June—and we are working with our colleagues, but we await the assessment of the IAEA before we take action.

Crime: Rape

Lord Campbell-Savours: asked Her Majesty's Government:
	Whether they will name the accuser in the Leslie Warren rape case and false accusers where cases of persons convicted of rape have been referred by the Criminal Cases Review Commission to the Court of Appeal as unsafe due to false allegations.

Lord Goldsmith: My Lords, no. Unless and until Parliament has decided to amend the law, it is not for Her Majesty's Government or anyone else to name complainants in rape cases and, by so doing, remove the anonymity that Parliament has chosen to confer. As we have made clear, the Government are considering whether the law on complainant anonymity requires amendment in the light of the Court of Appeal judgment in the Blackwell case.

Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, I detect a slight shift in that Answer. I thank my noble and learned friend, but who or what is to stop the false accuser in the case of Leslie Warren—who has now been released from prison—from making more false allegations against more innocent men? The police will have destroyed her DNA; they had no right to retain it because she was not prosecuted. The courts have given her lifetime anonymity under the law. The press will be prosecuted if they name her unless a Member of Parliament is prepared to raise it in the Chamber, which I am not prepared to do in this particular case. Is she to be left to carry on making further allegations in conditions that men can do little about until they get to court?

Lord Goldsmith: My Lords, in the event that any further allegation was brought by this particular complainant, it would, as far as is possible, be the responsibility of the prosecution to disclose to any defendant what had happened before. Indeed, that was the basis of the Court of Appeal's decision that certain disclosures had not been made relating to previous allegations. That is the protection that others will have.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, if there is to be disclosure, as the noble and learned Lord suggested, will there be a central register of complainants so that if this woman changes her name and makes an allegation somewhere else, as happened in this case—or if she keeps the same name and makes an allegation somewhere else—she can be traced? The CPS could take that into account in deciding whether to prosecute and disclose it to the offence.

Lord Goldsmith: My Lords, as the noble Lord will know, it is primarily the responsibility of the police when investigating allegations to consider whether there is relevant material. In another case that has been discussed in this House, the police decided to keep details of a particular person at each police station. Of course it is possible for people to be deceptive about who they are and their name in order to prevent all sorts of information about them being made known. That is why I said "as far as is possible" this disclosure will have to be made. In the case that went to the Court of Appeal, however, it was discovered that there had been other allegations and the Court of Appeal was able to act.

Lord Corbett of Castle Vale: My Lords, would it help to resolve the issue if we were to revert to the position under the Sexual Offences (Amendment) Act 1976—which I had the great privilege of sponsoring and getting on to the statute book—by which there was anonymity for a male defendant unless and until convicted?

Lord Goldsmith: My Lords, that is a different point. That is a question not of whether somebody may be falsely accused by someone who has made allegations before but of the tit-for-tat argument. That has been debated many times and has been the subject of independent review. The decision was ultimately taken that whether a defendant has anonymity is quite different from whether women—particularly those who would be deterred from bringing forward proper complaints because of the fear of disclosure of their identity—should have anonymity.

Baroness Gale: My Lords, I thank my noble and learned friend for giving such a positive response—that the anonymity of those who make a complaint about rape will be maintained. Does he agree that any hint of a change in the law could have serious implications for the victims of rape? It would perhaps make victims even more reluctant than they are now to come forward with a charge. Are any measures being taken to get a conviction rate that is better than the current very low one—less than 6 per cent of those charged are convicted? That would help women who have been raped to come forward with a charge. Otherwise, the present situation will continue and most rapists will get away with it, making many more women more reluctant to come forward.

Lord Goldsmith: My Lords, I agree with my noble friend that, as has been said in many quarters, anonymity is an important part of dealing with the reluctance to bring these complaints forward. As I indicated, we are considering—my noble friend Lady Scotland considered—whether there is a need to change the law in the light of the Blackwell judgment. That is probably because of the difference between the Court of Appeal's powers and the High Court's powers. As regards the conviction rate generally on rape, the Government hope to respond shortly following responses to the consultation paper on a number of changes on which we invited comments.

Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, my noble and learned friend told us that we should rely on disclosure by prosecutors so that the defence knows the full case and the background. But he knows—this has come through in parliamentary replies from the Home Office—that in the Warren Blackwell case the CPS failed to disclose all the information that it had and which should have been brought before the courts. Why cannot we have an early decision on whether the law can be changed in this area? My noble and learned friend has referred twice to the possibility of a change in law. Can we have a very early decision so that I do not have to table more Questions on this area and can move on to another area of rape law?

Lord Goldsmith: My Lords, what an effective threat. My noble friend Lady Scotland and I have said that we are considering this matter. I am prepared to say that we are actively considering this matter. Subject to other ministerial colleagues, I hope that we shall reach a decision soon. On the first point, the Blackwell case turned not so much on any non-disclosure, although I accept that there was non-disclosure, but on new evidence which had come to light which the prosecution did not have.

Gambling: Sport

Lord Faulkner of Worcester: asked Her Majesty's Government:
	What discussions they have had with the Gambling Commission about requiring betting organisations to conclude information-sharing agreements with sports governing bodies as a licence condition for accepting bets on those sports.

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, discussions have taken place over a range of issues relating to sports and the Gambling Act. However, neither the Government nor the commission believe that enforcing a policy of this nature is necessary. The licensing arrangements are primarily for the proper regulation of gambling, not sporting events. Nevertheless, the Government have put in place statutory and non-statutory arrangements which provide protections for both sporting events and the betting product.

Lord Faulkner of Worcester: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply, which I fear the sports organisations will find rather disappointing. Is he aware that some very serious allegations have been made against four Premiership football managers who, according to the allegations and contrary to the rules of the Football Association, have been placing bets on Premiership matches amounting to millions of pounds with the Gibraltar-based bookmaker, Victor Chandler? The Football Association has attempted to investigate the matter but Victor Chandler flatly refuses to provide the information it needs in order to do so.
	Does my noble friend agree that the integrity of sport is being compromised here and that this state of affairs can be dealt with only if the Gambling Commission insists as a licence condition that the betting organisations sign information exchange agreements with sports governing bodies so that there is complete transparency in the sports betting world?

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend, who has identified an issue of some concern. But it is for the Football Association to pursue this issue with rigour. Statutory constraints would be, and are, not only limited but almost negligible as regards offshore betting. As my noble friend identified, the company at present involved in these allegations is based in Gibraltar and outside our jurisdiction.

Lord Clement-Jones: My Lords, that is precisely the point. Victor Chandler, the Gibraltar-based bookmaker in question, is based oversees and, therefore, there are considerable issues under the Gambling Act in being able to exercise any jurisdiction.
	In July, the Sports Minister, Mr Caborn, said:
	"While the Gambling Commission has no jurisdiction over betting operators licensed outside Great Britain, it is continuing to build upon its co-operative relationships with overseas gambling regulators".—[Official Report, Commons,17/07/06, col. 98W.]
	Does that mean anything? What is really happening? What is the Sports Minister really doing to try to exercise at lease some kind of informal control over these overseas betting operators?

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord because he has identified the constructive position that the Government are adopting. With our 10-point plan, we are seeking to ensure that behaviour in this country meets the requirements of disclosure, and we are looking towards co-operation with other Governments and other gambling regulatory authorities to ensure that those based overseas meet the same standards as we expect in this country.

Lord Condon: My Lords, is the Minister aware that the International Cricket Council, the governing body for world cricket, has memoranda of understanding in place with many betting organisations around the world, including in the UK? Those arrangements have provided valuable information in the fight against match fixing and other corruption in betting in cricket. Will he therefore encourage such arrangements?

Lord Davies of Oldham: Indeed, my Lords, but cricket has the great benefit of an international governing body that can take up that stance and help the international response. The problem with football is that there is not quite the same degree of co-operation at the international level. We are all aware that abuses in Italy came to light last year and resulted in severe penalties for individuals and clubs. There is no doubt that the Government are wholly committed to the integrity of sport. The overall position is that we have established the 10-point plan for co-operation with the major sporting authorities, which does of course include cricket.

Lord Lyell: My Lords, the Minister was kind enough to mention integrity in sport. Is he able to give me some advice on one of the better scandals north of the Border? It is nothing to do with the Premier League, but concerns the club in which I have an interest, Forfar Athletic, which was made to play Peterhead with about eight sick men. I understand that the sum of £250,000 was placed on fixed-odds betting. Forfar lost 8-0. I am not sure what the payout was, but corruption does not necessarily have to be in the Premier League. Can the Minister give me some advice on what might be done and, above all, on whether the rules apply on both sides of the Border?

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the noble Lord will recognise that jurisdiction in the affairs of football and football clubs in Scotland is the priority of the Scottish Football Association. We are concerned, and in our 10-point plan, we are seeking to create standards across all sport in the United Kingdom as a whole to ensure that some of these practices are stamped out.

Lord Hoyle: My Lords, I must declare an interest as chairman of Warrington Wolves, a rugby league club—and we are going to have a good season in 2007. In view of the disquiet that has been expressed here, would it not be as well to take up the suggestion that has been made of discussions between the Gambling Commission and sports, such as rugby league and others, in order to ensure that some of these instances do not arise and that the sports in question are not brought into disrepute?

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for reminding me of his role with Warrington Wolves. In that role he will recognise that the Government tread warily with regard to the extent to which they impose restrictions on sports organisations that have their own structures for guaranteeing the effective prosecution of sport. I can assure him that rugby league, too, has signed up to the 10-point plan and that we therefore have a framework which deals with these issues within the United Kingdom. However, I recognise that there are particular problems with betting conducted through organisations outside our jurisdiction.

Medical Research: Animal Eggs

Lord Taverne: asked Her Majesty's Government:
	Whether they will allow the use of animal eggs to further the production of human stem cells for research.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, the Government published proposals on 14 December to update the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act. Our principal aim is to ensure that legitimate treatments and research continue to flourish within a system of regulation that promotes public confidence.

Lord Taverne: My Lords, the Government must be aware that the White Paper has caused a great deal of concern, as it does not seem to recognise that there is nothing new in the use of animal eggs and that human tissues and fusion products have long been used very profitably in medical research, as with xenograft models of cancer inserted into mice, for example. Would that be banned under the White Paper? There can be no question of chimera embryos being implanted in the womb; this is for research purposes only, to get round the severe scarcity of human embryos. Do the Government not realise that, if, tomorrow, the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority decides in response to the Government's White Paper that the three applications before it should be banned, that would gravely damage Britain's reputation as a world leader in the field of stem cell research, which has attracted talent from all over the world, and endanger some very promising lines of research into serious disabilities that affect more than a million families in this country?

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I cannot comment of course on the decision that has to be made by the HFEA. I very much accept the noble Lord's proposition about the status of this country in the area of stem cell research. He will recall that in 2001 I took through the regulations that allowed that to happen. The success of the UK's approach has come from combining strong regulation with a development of regulation as science has advanced. We make it clear in the White Paper that we will not allow the creation of embryos by combining human, animal and genetic material as part of the current update, but we will put in the legislation to be brought forward a regulation-making power to allow for such creations in the future for research purposes, if it is so decided. That is consistent with the approach that has been taken for legislation in this area. We will bring forward a draft Bill for pre-legislative scrutiny, when all these matters can be debated.

Lord Walton of Detchant: My Lords, does the Minister agree that the cells produced by this method of nuclear transfer cannot be construed as embryos under the terms of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act, but that they are capable of producing a very successful output of stem cells for the treatment of many crippling human diseases? Such cells produced by tissue culture would be free of any significant component of animal mitochondrial DNA. At the same time, is it not right that the Government should do what they can to encourage the donation of spare human embryos in IVF programmes and, wherever possible and feasible, the donation of human ova for similar reasons?

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, these matters relating to egg donation are for the HFEA to consider. The noble Lord will know that the HFEA has made a recent decision in that regard. Our understanding is that the law is unclear about the regulation of human and animal embryos created by novel processes. That is partly why we have reviewed the current legislation and why we will bring forward a draft Bill for parliamentary scrutiny. We have to recognise that, on the one hand, as the noble Lord, Lord Walton, suggested, there is great potential in research areas and that, on the other, there is genuine public concern about some of these developments. We are attempting to maintain a balance. I am sure that parliamentary scrutiny will help.

Lord Winston: My Lords, the Government are surely to be congratulated on their willingness to allow stem cell research, but Britain is rapidly becoming uncompetitive. The Medline index clearly shows that the numbers of publications from this country are falling. Does the Minister not agree that this is an example of an area about which there is very little public disquiet? There has been no evidence of that public disquiet of which he spoke. It is very clear that there is no possibility that such eggs, treated in this way, could become monsters or embryos that might be used for any purpose other than research. Under those circumstances, would it not be scandalous for this work not to go on to help human health?

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I hear what my noble friend says. He will know that I have been enormously committed over the years to encouraging the development of stem cell research in this country, as have the Government. We continue to encourage, and have put a lot more money into, research to enable that to happen. The UK's position is very strong.
	There will be scrutiny of the draft Bill. We will take into account the views that my noble friend has expressed, but our strong regulatory framework and the ability to march forward with the science have been the essential ingredients for our success in this country.

Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, in trying to strike the balance that the noble Lord has mentioned, will he take into account the views of Professor Austin Smith, of the University of Cambridge, who said as recently as 18 December in the Times that cloning research has limited potential for treating disease and that,
	"there are real question marks about whether it has any utility at all"?
	Is it not the case that since 1990, when your Lordships first authorised experiments on human embryos, more than 1 million human embryos have been destroyed or experimented upon without any diseases having been cured, and that the real breakthroughs are coming with adult stem cells, which carry no ethical hazards and raise none of the issues that chimeras, hybrids or the use of human embryonic stem cells do?

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, my answer is the same as I gave to the noble Lord in 2001: we should not rule out any area of research; it is surely too early to reach hard-and-fast conclusions. That is why we are committed to supporting stem cell research on all fronts.

Legal Services Bill [HL]

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, on behalf of my noble and learned friend, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on the Bill.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
	House in Committee accordingly.
	[The LORD SPEAKER in the Chair.]
	Clause 1 [The regulatory objectives]:

Lord Thomas of Gresford: moved Amendment No. 1:
	Clause 1 , page 1, line 7, at end insert—
	"( ) protecting and promoting the public interest;"

Lord Thomas of Gresford: It is my privilege to start on a long road by introducing the first amendment to this Bill. I am happy to say that I think I can be short in introducing it, because I said all that I want to say at Second Reading.
	I am concerned to ensure that the public interest stands at the forefront of the Bill. The Minister's brief may contain words to the effect that this is all unnecessary and goes without saying, but that is not the case. It is important that we do not succumb to political correctness or modern-day fashion by putting the consumer ahead of the public interest in its widest connotations. Protecting and promoting the public interest is a lawyer's prime duty. It sometimes means that they are, as I said at Second Reading, in conflict with the consumer, the client for whom they are acting. Nevertheless, it is a lawyer's duty to put the public interest first. I submit to noble Lords that that should be the first principle, ahead of consumer interest, in the Bill. I beg to move.

Lord Hunt of Wirral: I strongly agree. It is difficult to understand what has changed since the previous Lord Chancellor issued a consultation paper entitled In the Public Interest? I believe that he had it absolutely right—it is very much in the public interest that the reform of the legal profession should take place. But the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, has quite rightly noticed that the terminology has changed. It has suddenly become of concern to the Government that the reform of the legal profession should be in the interest of consumers and no longer in the public interest.
	I thank my noble friends who served with me on the Joint Select Committee. This matter came to our attention and, in our report published on 25 July, we stressed the importance of bringing back "public". I pause for a moment to consider what that word means. It is much wider than the consumer interest. The consumer interest is important—it is part of the public interest, but it is of course the interest of those who have used, or who use, the services. There is a much wider concept here, which was rightly recognised by the previous Lord Chancellor, that any move towards reforming what has always been seen as an independent, impartial legal profession must be in the interest not just of those who use the service, but of the much wider public interest.
	The Minister has already heard me say at Second Reading and previously that the definition of "public" covers what could be termed as being in the national interest—the interests of this country as a whole. Is it in the interest of this country that we should have an independent, impartial legal profession? Of course it is. The consumer wants it pretty cheap, and quite rightly so, but not necessarily high quality. Although one always tries to seek the advantage of having not only value for money but also high quality, quality perhaps does not rate as highly as the cost with some consumers. Of course many consumers, particularly those of the criminal legal system, are to be found in most of Her Majesty's institutions. That we should be bringing forward reform in the interests of the criminals is not something which should be paramount in our minds. I am glad that the Minister smiled because she dared me to say that in this Chamber. Well, I have said it.
	The public interest covers what is in the interest of UK plc. It is clearly in our interests that our legal profession should continue to be respected across the world. I have been lobbied by many senior Silks. It is the only time I have ever really come across them—they tend to be exceedingly expensive. I remember once having breakfast with a very senior Silk who afterwards charged me £2,500 for the privilege. I will not go into the detail of that case, but there are Silks who practise in other jurisdictions. There are lawyers, solicitors and barristers who practise across the world—not only in Commonwealth countries and not only in those that accept the English system of common law, but on a much wider scale. It is therefore surely in the national interest that whatever bodies we establish under this Bill should be in the interest of UK plc.
	It has also come to our attention that these words apply not only to the Legal Services Board, but will apply to the Office for Legal Complaints and to approved regulators. Therefore, we are dealing with a very wide concept. I warmly applaud the words of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford. I took the opportunity to surf the internet just before this debate to try to work out a definition of public interest. Wikipedia, the free encyclopaedia, directed me to "common well-being", which is an interesting concept. It also reminded me that public interest is often contrasted with private or individual interest, so one could say that it is very different from consumer, private or individual interest. It is much wider. Wikipedia repeats the words of many philosophers throughout the ages who stress that the public interest is a crucial concept in much political philosophy. Protection of minority rights is arguably part of the public interest. It is also a defence against certain lawsuits.
	I was also just looking at the ruling on 11 October last year in a very important case by our Judicial Committee, upholding the vital principle of press freedom in the public interest. Therefore, "the public interest" is found not only in this amendment, but in other key locations. I could say much more on the subject, but it strikes me that the Minister has been listening carefully and nodding from time to time. Her body language is very acceptable to this House. Therefore, I will sit down and hope that she will respond positively.

Lord Campbell of Alloway: I agree with everything that was said by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, and my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral. However, I have one reservation about Amendment No. 1, which relates to access to justice. Amendment No. 2 is preferred because, as was pointed out so clearly by my noble friend just now, the public interest qualifies the consumer interest. Having said that, the only justification for this Bill as amended is if it is in the public interest, which includes the interests of the client now referred to as the consumer.
	The width of public interest, which comes within the remit of the board, is fantastic. Before it makes any of its administrative decisions—be they on directions, public censure, financial penalties, interventions, cancellations, designation, policy statements, practising fees, regulatory conflicts or, indeed, the licensing—it has to take into account the public interest. It is a very wide remit. The amendment is of crucial consequence because it stands as guardian over all the other amendments to the Bill. My noble friend Lady Butler-Sloss—she was once my learned friend—said on Second Reading that consumer interest, if contrary to the public interest, is subservient to it. That is recognised by the drafting of Amendment No. 2.
	This is all very well, but there has been a fantastically wide delegation of powers to the board, which has been commented on by the Delegated Powers Committee. This raises the question of whether it should remain a matter of policy without some form of judicial supervision. It is a crucial consequence that the public should have confidence in the way that this proposed regime works. I suggest that they cannot have confidence in these circumstances, which are wholly exceptional, if there is no judicial control by way of judicial review.
	There are two aspects of public interest touched upon by my noble friend Lord Hunt. The first is the interest of the client to have independent and quality advice, which is in the public interest, too. The second is the standing of our legal professional as seen by other countries in the world.

Lord Neill of Bladen: I spoke on Second Reading about this Bill and should perhaps declare my interest as a practising barrister, former member of the Bar Council and once chairman of the Bar.
	It seems that there is no argument of substance between the two sides today, because the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton of Upholland, was good enough to write to me saying there was no need to be concerned about the public interest. She said that the Government shared our interest and had put in references to the public interest in Clauses 3(3)(c), 27(3)(c) and 113(3)(b), provisions dealing respectively with the Office for Legal Complaints and a couple of other bodies. They have put those words in to control the activities of the three most important bodies created by this Bill.
	Once you concede that, there is really no basis in principle on which you can object to our proposal that the Bill should proclaim on its front the importance attached to the public interest—and that it not be a matter of scurrying through a lot of clauses and getting as far as Clause 113, if anybody goes that far. We should put it right up on the front of the Bill, just like the White Paper that was put out earlier about the public interest. It fits very well beneath the reference to the rule of law but ahead of that to consumers. Without abandoning my colleagues on Amendment No. 2, I prefer the notion of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, that this should go in as a separate provision, coming in as Clause 1(1)(c). That is the place it obviously belongs and it should be put in there. I am grateful to the noble Baroness for having written to me, and I hope we shall see further actions reflecting the body language witnessed earlier.
	The other point to make is that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, was the chairman of the Joint Committee of the two Houses that examined the Bill, to the best of our ability. Part of our second recommendation was that these words should be introduced into Clause 1. I thought that that was right when we made the recommendation, and I still think that it is right.

Lord Lloyd of Berwick: If the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, is correct about the Minister's body language, I wish to say no more at all. But whether that be so or not, it seems clear that there must be a reference to public interest in Clause 1, especially as there is a specific reference to consumer interest. Of the two amendments, like the noble Lord, Lord Neill, I prefer Amendment No. 1.

Lord Graham of Edmonton: As a person who does not claim to be at all familiar with the law, the legal professions or legal services, I am a little puzzled by the need to distinguish the public interest and the interest of consumers. I do not intend to make heavy weather of that. I have listened carefully from the beginning to the arguments that have been advanced. As a consumer of legal services and many other things, I welcome the reference to the interest of the consumer in a Bill of this kind, while not remotely arguing that one interest should take preference over another.
	The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said that the consumer interest may be best defined as people wanting to find the cheapest services that they can, which may not always be services of quality. That may be so in respect of certain consumers of certain services, but we should remember the phrase "caveat emptor"—let the buyer beware. Certainly the cost of services, legal or otherwise, needs to be taken very seriously. So I shall listen carefully to the Minister's arguments as to whether the amendment is appropriate and necessary.
	I have no objection as a consumer to placing the interests of the public above that of consumers provided that the interests of the consumer are treated equally fairly and on the same line as the public interest. After all, we are at a stage and an age when the provision of legal services is always subject to very close scrutiny. Rightly, the legal profession, in its many forms, has its own monitoring and scrutiny arrangements. We shall come later to how those services can be better used to protect the interests of the public and the consumer.
	I cannot see the Minister's body language from the back, but I have listened carefully and I hope that we do not make very heavy weather of whether the interests of the consumer or the public are paramount. As a member of the public, I fully subscribe to all that has been said about the interests of the public but I hope that I have made as strong a case as I can that the interests of the consumer are entitled to be considered equally.

Baroness Carnegy of Lour: I hope that we will make very heavy weather of this. I look forward to the Minister's response, but in telling us her view could she say precisely why the Government omitted a reference to the public interest from the regulatory principles in Clause 1? I am not asking what they have put into the other clauses—I understand why they have done that—but it would be very interesting to know why they have omitted that reference.

Lord Lyell of Markyate: I support the objective of both amendments, although I slightly prefer Amendment No. 1. There is an important distinction between the point made by the Minister in her letter to the noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen, and the point that we are considering. Amendment No. 1 suggests that the regulatory objectives should protect and promote the public interest. That is what I believe we should seek to do. The other three clauses—Clause 3(3)(c), Clause 27(3)(c) and Clause 113—simply require that those governed by those provisions "have regard to" the public interest. It is not quite the same thing. Protecting and promoting are stronger; the words are clear. I hope that the Minister, whose body language looks pretty useful, will rise to give us some comfort.

Lord Whitty: I hope that the Minister's body language is not too conciliatory on this. I declare an interest as chair of the National Consumer Council. This Bill is about regulating the relationships between the legal profession and its clients. It is not about broader matters; it is about precisely that. It is therefore important that the consumer interest is given primacy. The two interests are not equal. On the face of it I would have no objection to a reference to the public interest. However, I have a deep suspicion that what certain protagonists here mean by the public interest includes a big chunk of the interests of the legal profession itself. I am not going to participate much in Committee, but my noble friend needs to be aware that some of the amendments tabled today raise that suspicion. Whatever concessions the Minister may be prepared to make, we need to be clear that this Bill is primarily about consumers. It should have regard to the public interest—and there is provision for that later in the Bill, as the noble and learned Lord has just said—but the purpose is to protect consumers.

Lord Kingsland: My name is attached to Amendment No. 2. I was a little unnerved by the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen, whose name is also attached to Amendment No. 2, but not to Amendment No. 1. At some stage—I do not know when—the noble Lord must have decided that he preferred Amendment No. 1 to Amendment No. 2. That speaks highly of the eloquence of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, who has obviously returned to your Lordships' House in sparkling form and, with a few deft flicks of his paintbrush, has portrayed a very attractive case for Amendment No. 1. I congratulate him.
	Our reason for aligning, in Amendment No. 2, public interest with consumer interest is simply this: the Legal Services Board is entitled to intervene on the basis of any one of the seven criteria in Clause 1(1), so that if you have public interest as a stand-alone category, consumer interest is also left as a stand-alone category. For example, the Legal Services Board could intervene solely on consumer grounds, quite independently of the public interest. That is why we combine public and consumer interest: it forces the Legal Services Board to balance the consumer interest against the public interest before intervening.
	It is strange that public interest does not appear in Clause 1(1). Before the draft of the Bill became public, all the indications were that there would be a public interest provision. After all, the terms of reference for the Clementi report were the public and consumer interests. There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the Joint Committee, chaired so ably by my noble friend Lord Hunt, wanted public interest to be a category in the regulatory objectives.
	The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, and so many other noble Lords who have spoken have rightly said that the public interest and the consumer interest will not always coincide. A number of your Lordships have hazarded a definition of the public interest, but to me the crucial ingredient of the public interest in this context is justice. The courts are here in the United Kingdom to attain justice; that is their role. There will sometimes be a conflict between the attainment of justice and the provision of legal services at a certain price. It is that conflict with which the Legal Services Board has to grapple. Unless the public interest is one of the objectives, there will be no requirement for the Legal Services Board to grapple with it. That is the worry.
	The noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen, has rightly drawn your Lordships' attention to the letter from the noble Baroness on the three regulatory bodies in the Bill. I am looking at Clause 3, on the Legal Services Board. In Clause 3(3)(c), we see "the public interest", but if one looks at the way in which Clause 3(3) is introduced, one sees that the requirement is for the board to "have regard to" the public interest. But, at the end of the day, having had regard to it, the board is not obliged to take it into account in its decision-making. This is a very weak provision in favour of the public interest. I very much support all your Lordships who have intervened to say that the absence of the public interest in Clause 1(1) ought to be rectified by the Government.

Lord Clinton-Davis: Will the noble Lord take this opportunity to reply to the points raised by my noble friend about the interests of the legal profession being paramount? I do not agree with that at all.

Lord Kingsland: I do not think that I mentioned the legal profession in my reply. I certainly do not think that the interests of the legal profession should be paramount; indeed, there are many stipulations in Clause 1(1) that would qualify the paramountcy of the legal profession. My concern about public interest is about the courts and justice, which is a very distinct phenomenon from the interests of the legal profession. Members of the legal profession are advocates in front of the courts, but the courts ultimately are run, and their decisions are made, by judges in the interests of justice. That is the public interest that I think is crucial.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I am clearly going to have to keep my body under control during the passage of this Bill. I should not have said that; it begs enormous numbers of comments. None the less, by nodding at noble Lords I was trying to indicate that I fully understood the points that had been raised.
	For me, the public interest is why you regulate. Regulation is about something that we do as a Government to support the public interest. As noble Lords have rightly pointed out, the Government were very keen, in responding to the Joint Committee, to tackle the issue appropriately. The noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen, referred to the letter that I sent to him and to the fact that in Clauses 3, 27 and 113 we have put in,
	"have regard to ... the public interest",
	for the specific aspects in the Bill. That was our attempt to respond to the Joint Committee appropriately. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral—on whom we have all heaped praise for his chairing of the Joint Committee—should just assume that I praise him each time I mention him, which will save us some time, for it is always at the back of my mind.
	What has changed? Nothing has changed. We felt that we had dealt with the issue appropriately in those clauses. I accept the concerns of my noble friend Lord Whitty. When the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, talked about the balance between the consumer interest and the public interest, it made me a little nervous, because I do not see it quite in that way. I accept—and I wanted to listen to this debate very carefully—that there is an issue that we have not quite got right in the Bill, and I am very keen to address it. I did not know whether we would go for the approach in Amendment No. 1 or in Amendment No. 2, so it was interesting that we had a mixture of both. Perhaps the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, found more favour in this particular debate.
	I worry a little that we are trying to balance something when in this instance the regulation, as my noble friend rightly says, is primarily about the relationship between the legal profession and the consumer, customer, citizen or client—whichever word noble Lords prefer—whom the profession is seeking to serve. That all takes place within the context of the public interest, whether the definition is from Wikipedia or from the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland. I am very mindful of what my noble friend Lord Whitty has said. Indeed, in discussions, organisations that are particularly concerned about consumer interests have been keen to make sure that we are mindful of what the regulation is seeking to achieve. None the less, I think that we have something that we need to address and we will endeavour to do so.
	For my part at this stage, what I would say is that we are very interested in this debate, on which I will reflect very carefully. The noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, raised the question of judicial review; I know that he has an amendment later in the Bill that specifically tackles that. I had the opportunity to discuss with him earlier today the whole question of judicial review and I think that he will accept that we are absolutely confident that those who are being regulated will be able to go to judicial review where they feel that there is an issue to be resolved. But I think that we should wait for that debate to talk about the matter in greater detail, as other noble Lords may wish to add to that.
	So in essence we agree with what the Joint Committee was seeking to do. We believed that we had resolved it appropriately. If noble Lords believe that we have not, we will endeavour to do so, building on this debate and perhaps in discussion with those who put forward Amendments Nos. 1 and 2, but being very mindful of what my noble friends Lord Whitty and Lord Graham of Edmonton said about ensuring that we are clear about the purpose of regulation. I do not think that there is any difference between us. On that basis, I hope that noble Lords will feel able not to press their amendments, and I shall return to the subject at Report.

Lord Maclennan of Rogart: I wonder whether the Minister would be quite specific in addressing the point that has been made about the difference between having "regard to"—which occurs in Clause 3(3)(a)—and having concern for the public interest as an objective. They seem to be two quite different approaches.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: They are. The purpose of the phrase "have regard to" was to focus on the particular institutions, if I can call them that, in the Bill. The question that I was seeking to get advice and a steer on from the debate was whether by including the public interest with the consumer interest, as suggested in Amendment No. 2, that could put the public interest either in conflict or in a secondary position, or whether what we were seeking to do was to have an overarching principle within Clause 1 that would cover this. I need to reflect on where I think noble Lords have got to with that debate. That was really what I was seeking. The aim is not to say "have regard to" in Clause 1; it is rather to put this issue in a different position in order to reflect what I think the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, believes we did not quite get right from the Joint Committee.

Baroness Carnegy of Lour: Will the noble Baroness bear in mind that the public understand very well the need for both these things? It is great news that the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, is there reminding us about consumers, which most of us are. Most of us know that the legal profession needs to be kept in order. There are all sorts of things we could say about it. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, may very politely say some of them during these proceedings and I may say, "Hear, hear." But the public also understand very well the importance of the public interest because what a particular consumer wants is not necessarily what everybody else wants. People understand the importance of the rule of the law. I do not think that politically the Government need be frightened of giving paramountcy to the public interest. I think the public understand that but they also know very well that they need to be protected from lawyers.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: What I should have said, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, quite rightly indicated, is that it was my noble and learned friend Lord Irvine of Lairg who began all this with a document about the public interest. My noble and learned friend is always right and in this case we begin to see the fruits of his labour being writ large within the Bill. I will of course take this away.

Lord Hunt of Wirral: I do believe we are making progress. I referred to the general principle of "in the public interest" and now that my noble friend has spoken to Amendment No. 2, as have a number of other noble Lords, I should give an explanation. It was the unanimous recommendation of the Joint Select Committee that the words in Amendment No. 2 should be added to the Bill. Although the Minister has paid tribute to the previous Lord Chancellor, I do not think that she has yet quite explained why there has been a change in terminology. That is particularly important, in the light of the words of the noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton. He reminded us that he is a member of the public; he is also a consumer of legal services, as are many members of the legal profession. But many members of the public do not use legal services; indeed, they spend their whole life hoping that they will never have to. It was once said that you can live without a lawyer but you cannot die without one. Lawyers ultimately catch up with people at some stage. Therefore, the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor was quite right to question whether the legal profession was in the public interest. That is the key question.
	I pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Kingsland for having spoken to the amendment that was tabled following the unanimous recommendation of the Joint Select Committee. I should like to explain why we were concerned about the Minister's response. The Government responded to the Joint Select Committee report by saying,
	"we do not think it appropriate that the two"—
	the interests of the public and of consumers—
	"should sit within the same objective".
	Therefore we come back to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen: is it right that these should be in the same objective? We discussed this in the Joint Select Committee where the view expressed was that of the noble Lord, Lord Graham. The noble Lord said that he was a member of the public but also a consumer. In those two capacities, his interests may not be exactly the same. His wish is to see the two taken into account. The terms of reference set by the Government for Sir David Clementi's review were that he should consider the public and the consumer interest. Those are the Government's words; they actually have said that there are two interests—public and consumer—and that both should be considered.
	As noble Lords know, I am a practising solicitor and I have always declared that interest. My worry is that putting the public interest where it is in the Bill, in the genuine belief that doing so was responding to the Select Committee's recommendation, has resulted in the worst of all worlds. Instead of the public interest being a regulatory objective and clearly set out on a par with the consumer interest, it is relegated in Clause 3 to something to which the board and the other institutions must have regard.
	All the Minister's words are authoritative but we need in this instance a particularly authoritative explanation of the difference between the public and the consumers' interests. Why have the Government moved from their position that the reform must be in the consumer and public interests, as they said in their instructions to Sir David Clementi, to saying that the regulatory objective must include only consumers? It may well be that the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, has, behind the scenes, exercised such power and influence that he has won this critical battle. Judging by what he said to us earlier, it is, to him, a very important battle, but it is one on behalf of just a section of the public. We now need to ask the Minister to reflect on putting the public interest right at the heart of the regulatory objectives, not necessarily as the first objective—they are not in any order, and we will debate that a little later—but certainly back where it started under the noble and learned Lord, the previous Lord Chancellor.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I agree with a huge amount of what the noble Lord said. I say again that the Government took on board the recommendation and sought to achieve it in the Bill in two ways. One was to put it in the clauses that we have already talked about—Clauses 3, 27 and 113—to make clear the organs that are being developed under the Bill. But we also believed that, when the regulatory objectives were taken together, we had dealt with the public interest: if the regulatory objectives were being dealt with, then the legal professions would be operating within the public interest.
	Noble Lords have talked about the difference between the overarching public interest that is served by the legal professions and by regulation—that is the point that I was seeking to make—and the interests of those on the receiving end of the services where regulation is important in ensuring that a proper and fair deal is had. That, in a sense, was the point made by my noble friend Lord Whitty, who has lobbied me not at all on this issue. However, I am pleased to say that I have met representatives of organisations who have talked me through some of these questions from their perspective, and I am grateful to them, as I am to the Law Society, the Bar Council and others.
	Within this debate, we were looking to recognise the strength of feeling in this Chamber that this matter needed to be considered and to think about how best to reflect what noble Lords have said. As Members of the Committee know, the different amendments offer different approaches. The view that I have taken from the debate is that we probably need to think about the public interest in a slightly more overarching sense. Obviously, I shall need to consult colleagues because I am not the policy Minister in this case, but I think that the sense of the debate is to go in that direction and I have no difficulty with that. But we also need to be mindful of the purpose of the regulation, which I think is where my noble friend Lord Whitty was coming from.
	I hope that I have answered the noble Lord's points. There was no desire to move away from the issue; it was simply that we felt that we had achieved what was desired. If we have not, we need to think about that. However, from our perspective, the combination of objectives ensures that the public interest is served; simply inserting it as one objective would not achieve what we thought we had achieved and might not be as good as what could be achieved if we thought about it again. I hope that the fact that I will talk to noble Lords between now and Report will be acceptable to the Committee.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: I thought that it was uncharacteristic—not to say unworthy—of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, to suggest that, in putting forward this amendment, I was in some way trying to protect the interests of the legal profession. That is not the case. I think that putting the consumer first strengthens a perception among the public that it is only the consumer or client who counts. The lawyer is not the paid mouthpiece of the client who is prepared to say whatever the client will pay him to say. He has a much more independent position. Perhaps the public perception is that lawyers are just paid mouthpieces, but the discipline and ethos of the legal profession are entirely against that—they are to act independently and to take into account the public interest first.
	If the Bill were simply about the relationship between the legal profession and the consumer, I am sure that it would be phrased in a much narrower way. However, the regulatory objectives in Clause 1 start with:
	"(a) supporting the constitutional principle of the rule of law"—
	I do not see much about consumers in that objective—
	"(b) improving access to justice;
	"(c) protecting and promoting the interests of consumers".
	When the regulatory objectives are expressed like that, surely it is right to include that primary purpose of the legal profession to protect and to promote the public interest.
	The Bill is not simply concerned with regulating the legal profession's relationship with consumers. The regulatory body, the LSB, has relationships with the Bar Council, the Law Society and other regulators and the regulatory objectives are to be used in connection with those relationships. I am very heartened by the expressions that we have heard from the Minister's lips—I leave out references to other parts. In the course of discussions before Report stage, I hope that we can sort out this point. If not, we shall pursue it. For the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
	[Amendment No. 2 not moved.]

Lord Kingsland: moved Amendment No. 3:
	: Clause 1, page 1, line 9, at beginning insert "subject to the objectives in paragraphs (a) to (c),"

Lord Kingsland: Amendment No. 3 inserts the expression "subject to the objectives in paragraphs (a) to (c)" at the beginning of Clause 1(1)(d), so that it would read,
	"subject to the objectives in paragraphs (a) to (c), promoting competition in the provision of services within subsection (2)".
	Promoting competition is clearly a desirable objective. It is of particular importance in the Bill in regard to alternative business structures, to which we shall turn later on in Committee. However, our view is that the introduction of such structures, or indeed any other matters concerning competition, should not be capable of overriding the three principles expressed in Clause 1(1)(a) to (c); that is, supporting the constitutional principle of the rule of law, improving access to justice, and protecting and promoting the interests of consumers. Only in the context of the achievement of those three objectives should the competition objective be given free rein.
	Quite apart from that point, I have two other issues on Clause 1(1)(d) I want to raise with the Minister. The first is that Clause 1(1)(d) refers to,
	"the provision of services within subsection (2)",
	which draws our attention to services that are provided by authorised persons. As a consequence of Clause 1(1)(d), will the OFT have responsibility—the responsibilities of the OFT are excluded from supervising services provided by authorised persons—or will the Legal Services Board and the OFT have co-responsibility for competition in this area? I am not sure of the position.
	I also ask the Minister about the expression "promoting competition". I suggest to her that it is not desirable for the LSB to have a role in actively promoting competition. I understand that the LSB ought to be alert to anti-competitive practices and have the power to act where it identifies them. That is quite different from the active promotion of competition, however. The market, the authorised persons who want to engage in certain activities, should be free to do so. Only if they engage in those practices in an anti-competitive way should the Legal Services Board be able to act. It should not in itself be able to take initiatives which seek to enhance competition.
	The Minister has not been given notice of that observation, and I understand if she wants to reserve her position at this juncture. We must at some stage, however, be clear about the relationship between the Legal Services Board and the competition powers in the Bill. I have said enough to give the Minister a basis upon which to respond, and I beg to move.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: That was speedier than I thought.
	I understand entirely what the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, is getting at. We do not want to be unduly restrictive by putting in the Bill a duty on the regulatory bodies to consider one objective subject to another. In any case, it may sometimes not be relevant. Of course, there are other areas of concern, where other groups, individuals or Members of your Lordships' House or another place might consider that the ranking should be different and that there should be a paramountcy of one objective above another, or that some are stronger than others.
	We were keen to ensure that the regulator was able to look at the objectives in the round and weight them as it saw fit. The Joint Committee recommended that the Explanatory Notes should make it explicit that the objectives were not listed in order of importance. We agreed with that, and the Explanatory Notes reflect it. The way we have done this reflects David Clementi's recommendation that the board, the Office for Legal Complaints and the regulators would be best placed to determine which objectives and principles were the most important in a particular instance. That is the right way to approach this.
	As the noble Lord said, the promotion of competition is an important objective and should be considered appropriately. However, those looking at what is happening in the regulatory framework should weight the objectives as they see fit. I understand what the noble Lord seeks to do. Clearly, there will be circumstances where different objectives need to be looked at in a different way, with some coming into play and some not. That is the regulator's role. It is not for us to try to rank them in the Bill.
	On the Office of Fair Trading, I looked at what we did in the Compensation Act 2006, because the competition issue had been raised. During the passage of that legislation, the Office of Fair Trading pointed out to me that it does not have responsibility for competition for any regulator designated under that Act—or, therefore, under this Bill. Behaviour of individual firms and individuals remains subject to the competition enforcement provisions in the normal way and, therefore, under the OFT's supervision. We were able to satisfy your Lordships that we had addressed the need for competition as an important part of both consumer and public interest approaches to the legislation.
	I am not sure that that fully answers the point about the Office of Fair Trading, but I hope that it demonstrates that we have looked at the issue. I shall talk further with the noble Lord to ensure that I have picked up all his concerns. None the less, that is why we do not want to put the ranking in the Bill; it is for the regulator to determine.

Lord Kingsland: I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her reply. We do not dispute the desirability of having competition as one of the objectives. Our concern is about the weighting that competition should have in respect of certain other objectives including the interests of consumers. It is a point about weighting rather than substance. The Minister has responded with her customary sensitivity. I suspect that in doing so she is gently telling me nevertheless that she does not like my amendment. I shall reflect on the consequences of what she said and take a view about it on Report.
	By the end of this stage in your Lordships' House it is desirable that we have a clear idea of the precise responsibilities of the Legal Services Board. We have to remember that, at the end of the day, all this regulation is paid for by the professions. I think that they would rightly view with alarm the Legal Services Board turning itself into a fully fledged competition authority, particularly if it were an authority which had the power to promote competition. The possibilities are lamentably endless. It is not just a question of legislative precision. The legislative precision has very practical consequences for everyone being regulated under the Bill in terms of how much it will cost them. The issue of competition perhaps goes a little wider than my amendment envisaged. I apologise to the noble Baroness for broadening it out beyond what I suspect she expected to respond to.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I am always delighted to broaden things out. One of the advantages of Committee is that it enables us to look more widely. Perhaps I may remind the noble Lord that the OFT's competition scrutiny is provided for in Clauses 56 to 60. That might address some of his concern. Within the Compensation Act, with the regulation transferring to the Legal Services Board, the OFT's position has to shift slightly.
	I shall be happy to talk further about competition. It is an important area. We had a number of interesting discussions in Committee on the then Compensation Bill about the meaning of "promote"; the relationship with the Office of Fair Trading; the importance of competition to benefit consumers—we broadly accepted it in that piece of legislation as we probably shall do in this—making sure that the language is right; and so on. It would be interesting to do so again.

Lord Kingsland: I did not have the privilege of featuring in debate on the then Compensation Bill. I was unaware, therefore, that the matter had been fully debated in that context. My concern is about boundary lines and demarcation. My objective is to make sure that we understand exactly what the Legal Services Board can and cannot do. I do not have a particular view at this juncture about what powers the board should have; but I am clear that whatever it has must be crystal clear on the face of the Bill.

Lord Lyell of Markyate: Instead of promoting competition and the provision of services as one of the regulatory objectives, is it worth considering at some later point in the Bill that one should have regard to the importance of competition? It would slightly demote the issue in that sense but might better achieve what the Committee seeks to achieve. I throw that out as a possible suggestion.

Lord Maclennan of Rogart: I intrude in the debate a little tardily but feel it is important to indicate to the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, in particular that he will not stand alone in putting forward his amendment. It was not intended entirely as a probing amendment at this stage.
	It is fair to point out that competition is normally advantageous to the consumer, which makes it appropriate as an objective for the regulatory provisions of the Bill, but it is not necessarily universally so, and it is possible that the body would have to pick and choose between different regulatory objectives in reaching a decision, even in the interests of the consumer. It would be possible to lose sight of the consumer in promoting competition. It would be theoretically—indeed, more than theoretically—possible to promote competitive behaviour in order to benefit the providers of the services. It is clear that if it came to an evaluation of which criteria and objectives should be given weight in the event of a conflict between the regulatory objectives of promoting access to justice and promoting competition, then the promotion of access to justice would clearly appropriately be given priority. I see no harm in spelling that out in the Bill.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: We think it is for the regulator to determine in a particular set of circumstances which objective is weighed in the balance against which. If one was ranking the objectives, there are organisations that would wish to see consumer interest, for example, ranked as number one, but other organisations would rank other objectives first.
	Our view is that, when faced with a particular proposition, one should look at the objectives in that context. Competition is important. Noble Lords may feel that it is less important generally but, in a particular set of circumstances, it might for particular reasons become extraordinarily important because of what it is providing for the consumer, public interest and so on. It is in the public interest to have competition. All we are really arguing about is who should deal with it. Our view is clear: it should not be for your Lordships' House to determine the ranking. Points have been well made about the sets of circumstances the regulator needs to look at, how it should weight the objectives in the balance, and which are relevant, which are not and which should carry more weight. That is absolutely right and proper. It does not mean that I disagree with what the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, said.

Lord Kingsland: I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
	On Question, Whether Clause 1 shall stand part of the Bill?

Lord Kingsland: In speaking to the question of whether Clause 1 should stand part of the Bill, I shall speak also to Amendment No. 3A. I apologise to your Lordships for tabling that amendment so late, but the point that underlines it only came to me yesterday when I was looking through the Bill—not, I hasten to add, for the first time, but again.
	I asked to speak on clause stand part and tabled the amendment because I have come to the view that Clause 1, the regulatory objectives clause, applies to too many disparate regulatory authorities. Clause 1 applies not only to the Legal Services Board but also to the Office for Legal Complaints and to all the authorised regulators. These three different types of regulators have distinct and disparate functions. Perhaps the most startling difference is between the Legal Services Board and the authorised regulators. The Legal Services Board, as the Government have said on many occasions, is essentially a supervisory board, supervising the work of the other regulators. By contrast, the authorised regulators are the front-line regulators. Under the Bill, the Legal Services Board, in principle at any rate, intervenes in the work of an authorised regulator only if that authorised regulator is alleged to have been in some way delinquent.
	To have one set of regulatory objectives to cover three types of regulatory authority with very different responsibilities is not a sensible way of proceeding. It means that the regulatory objectives have to be so broad and loosely defined that they cover all three types of authority, but, because they seek to cover all three, each one is insufficiently pinned down by the objectives for the Bill to give an accurate picture of what it ought to do. Therefore, the regulatory authorities will have far more freedom of manoeuvre to act than they ought to have. The basis on which I oppose the question that Clause 1 stand part of the Bill and tabled Amendment No. 3A is that there should be not one, but three, objectives clauses in the Bill: one for the Legal Services Board, one for the Office for Legal Complaints and one for the authorised authorities. That will enable the draftsmen to be much more specific about what it is that each one of these separate categories of regulatory authority ought to do.
	My draft of the new clause in Amendment No. 3A is submitted almost in the spirit of a probing amendment. Proposed subsection (1) seeks to set out what I consider the board's regulatory objectives ought to be—the objectives of the board alone—but I entirely understand that other noble Lords might take a different view. On mature reflection, I, too, might want to change the categories in proposed paragraphs (a) to (e) either to alter one or more of them or to add to them, but the point of principle is that each separate regulatory authority ought to have its own distinct objectives.
	We would then get from the Bill an understanding of the precise relationship that each of these authorities has one with another. It ought to have an extremely beneficial effect on the disease of what is often described as "regulatory creep", which we find so often in other fields of regulation. I emphasise as I did when promoting the previous amendment that, because this is a self-financing scheme, it is particularly important that those who are paying for this regulatory regime are very clear about what they are getting for their money. The present structure of the Bill does not provide that.

Lord Hunt of Wirral: I strongly support the noble Lord in opposing the question whether Clause 1 stand part of the Bill and on his Amendment No. 3A, of which he has given us a feel. In our Joint Committee—the noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen, may correct me if I am wrong—we did not quite appreciate that Clause 1 would apply not only to the Legal Services Board and the Office for Legal Complaints, but also to the approved authorised regulators. I can therefore see that we would have liked to spend a little more time on this area.
	As my noble friend Lord Kingsland pointed out, similar bodies being set up have carefully defined objectives. My main concern with these regulatory objectives is that there is a great deal about what the bodies are to do but very little about what they should not do. Duties are a very useful way of setting out exactly what we expect of a body. I look forward very much to some more detailed amendments, perhaps on Report, but in the mean time we seek an indication from the Minister that she is prepared to look at this, just to ensure that when we create these bodies we give them carefully defined terms of reference. We will debate in greater detail later amendments setting out the need to avoid overlap between the approved regulators and the Legal Services Board and the need to act in partnership.
	I am persuaded by my noble friend that we ought to look at setting out very carefully, succinctly and in exact terms what we expect of these bodies. We will expect different things from each body. The Legal Services Board is seen as the overarching regulator, but the detail is left to the front-line regulators. The Office for Legal Complaints has a completely different persona; we want it to sort out complaints and ensure that those who wish to complain are treated quickly, promptly and efficiently. There is a need for that; indeed, some would say that the main reason for the Bill, apart from the original OFT report, was that the area of complaints had a cloud hanging over it. Without ascribing blame to anyone, I suggest that there was a feeling that the whole business was not being dealt with as efficiently as possible. However, I am not sure that the Office for Legal Complaints will have the same regulatory objectives, duties and powers that we will give the Legal Services Board, or equally the same as those we would want the approved regulators to have.
	My noble friend is doing us all a great service and has spotted something that, in our rush to complete and deliver our report, the Joint Committee omitted to notice. We should have spent more time on it; thanks to my noble friend we will now be able to do so.

Viscount Bledisloe: Perhaps I may sound a word of caution. If you have three different boards with three different sets of objectives, all slightly differently worded, and something that is in set one is not in set two, or differently worded in set two, are you not promoting the most wonderful field day for lawyers to produce enormously complicated arguments? They could argue, for example, on the basis that set one says "x", but set two says "x with y added", and set three says "x with z excluded". You would be asking people to dance on the head of the proverbial pin, trying to find reasons or arguments based on such subtle distinctions. Would it not be better to have a wider set of principles that apply to all three sets and allow the person doing the work and anybody asked to adjudicate on that work to say, "These are all the objectives, but this one is less important in the context of the work that my body is required to do"? I thought of this only while the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, was speaking, but I wonder whether he is not simply creating a very profitable field for our profession.

Lord Maclennan of Rogart: I am grateful for the last intervention, since I, too, came to the subject very late in our deliberations, when this new amendment was tabled. The old Latin tag of construction,
	"inclusio unius est exclusio alterius",
	popped into my head and I wondered whether we had a series of regulatory objectives applying to the Office for Legal Complaints that were different and that excluded one of the criteria or objectives. There would be considerable uncertainty about why that was so. My mind is by no means closed on this, but if the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, were to come up with some specific examples of where it would be inappropriate to apply some of the proposed regulatory objectives to all the bodies that the Bill seeks to regulate or to provide the means for regulating, then perhaps the case might be a little stronger. In principle, it is likely that each case considered by the Office for Legal Complaints or the Legal Services Board would give rise to different factual circumstances, which may mean that different weights would be given to different objectives. But I think that the objectives broadly spelt out—particularly if they are amended to include the general objective of the public interest—would be pretty transferable between the bodies to which the Bill applies.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: Once again, we have had an interesting debate. In a sense, we began from Sir David Clementi's final report, in which he said that the first step of establishing a regulatory regime should be to make clear the objectives of that regime. That is what we have sought to do in Clause 1, bearing in mind what I have already said about public interest. It reflects what I think the noble Viscount is alluding to. We wanted to say, "This is what the regime should be about: there are different players within that regime, but these are the objectives that should cover the regime". We wanted to be very clear about what those objectives ought to be.
	The report then goes on to say—and this is critical for those charged with regulatory responsibility—that those who have separated the regulatory and representative function should carry out their regulation in accordance with those objectives and subject to the oversight. So these are, in a sense, the founding principles. We also go on to say under Clause 48 that the board may make policy statements. We think that this may be an area that we could explore in the context of what the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, is seeking to do. I share the noble Viscount's concerns and the initial concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan of Rogart, although he will want to reflect further on this, that we run the risk of creating confusion and—love the profession as I do—of creating opportunities for people to acquire further work from a legal perspective in order to clarify what is meant.
	My inclination is to say that we need a founding set of principles for the regime. But it may be that under Clause 48, which provides for the board to make policy statements, we can do more to set out what we would be seeking to achieve and how the regime and the overarching regulatory objectives would translate into the work of the individual players, without pre-empting what we would wish to happen, which is that the board itself should be working closely with the different regulatory bodies in figuring out precisely what they should be doing.
	I am keen to discuss this matter and I am not averse to trying to be clearer, particularly about the Office for Legal Complaints, about which noble Lords have raised issues. But I would be loath to try to set this up in three different sets of objectives in the Bill, because it would be confusing, as others have indicated. We can continue to discuss this. There may be other ways of seeking to clarify further what the policy statements would be and the rules that would follow on from those. That is the way that we have often sought to demonstrate further what the Government are seeking to achieve in discussions about legislation in your Lordships' House. I am happy to consider that and to discuss it with the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, if it would be a way forward.

Lord Kingsland: I am grateful to the Minister and to all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. My objective is for the Bill to be clear about the objectives and functions of each one of the three regulators. In my view, the Bill as drafted is not sufficiently clear. It is undesirable, particularly in a self-financing regulatory regime, for there to be imprecision in this area. It may well be that my proposal is not the optimal solution, but the situation as it stands is wholly unsatisfactory. There may be another way of achieving what I am seeking to achieve. The Minister suggested Clause 48 and we may be able to look at other clauses. However, I also accept that there is the duty on me to go away and look at the objectives not only of the Legal Services Board but of the Office for Legal Complaints and the authorised regulators, and try to come up with a set of objectives that accurately reflect what I think should be the responsibilities of these three regulators. The Minister has been kind enough to say that her mind remains open on these issues, and we shall have time between now and Report to make some progress.

Lord Hunt of Wirral: While we are still dealing with Clause 1, I wanted to tell the Minister how much the Joint Committee appreciated the Government's response in a number of amendments that have been made to the original draft Bill, particularly following our recommendation 3 in Chapter 3 that,
	"the professional principles set out in clause 1(3) of the Bill should be amended to include the duty to the court explicitly in the professional principles".
	I know that my noble friend Lord Neill of Bladen—if I may call him that—felt very strongly about that. We are very pleased that the Government felt able to re-word the professional principles to include that explicit duty.
	The Government also accepted our recommendation 4 in Chapter 3 that,
	"the independence of the profession should be included explicitly in the regulatory objectives and that objective (e) should be redrafted to",
	become the words that are now part of the Bill, which are,
	"encouraging an independent, strong, diverse and effective legal profession".
	Although the Government did not feel able to accept a number of our recommendations, it is right that I should pay tribute to the Minister and her colleagues for recognising the importance of those recommendations and implementing them.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: Thank you.

Clause 1 agreed to.
	Clause 2 agreed to.
	[Amendment No. 3A not moved.]
	Schedule 1 [The Legal Services Board]:

Lord Thomas of Gresford: moved Amendment No. 4:
	Schedule 1 , page 112, line 6, leave out "the Secretary of State" and insert "Her Majesty on the recommendation of the Lord Chancellor pursuant to the provisions of section 85(1)(b) of the Constitutional Reform Act 2005"

Lord Thomas of Gresford: We now come to an important part of the Bill, dealing with the independence of the Legal Services Board. The danger seen generally and reflected in the speeches at Second Reading is that the Legal Services Board be thought a body set up simply to introduce government influence into the legal profession. I am sure that is not the intention of the Government, and it is important that they make that absolutely clear in the Bill.
	The Legal Services Board is going to deal with a number of bodies—to take two, the Law Society and the Bar Council, which will presumably be approved regulators—that are well established, with a long history of self-regulation and completely independent of government. It is essential that the Legal Services Board itself be seen to be independent and to carry weight. It will deal with people in the profession who know that profession from the roots up. The board, consisting as it will of a number of lay persons, must demonstrate that it is a weighty body capable of giving directions, and independent of any government or political interference.
	The Bill simply provides that the Secretary of State, unnamed—it could be any Secretary of State, perhaps even the Home Secretary—is the person who appoints the Legal Services Board. We do not think that is adequate. The importance of giving stature to the board is such that the Bill ought to follow the procedure in the Constitutional Reform Act 2005. Your Lordships will recall that when it was decided that the Lord Chancellor should cease to have the function of appointing judges and the matter was handed over to an appointments board, various levels of mechanism were introduced to make those appointments. In our view, the appropriate level of appointment is that set out in Section 85(1)(b) of the Constitutional Reform Act 2005, whereby the appointment is made by Her Majesty on the recommendation of the Lord Chancellor, but a recommendation which is informed by the selection process of the commission set up under that Act.
	The sort of office holders that Section 85(1)(b) referred to are, for example, district judges and people of considerable importance and rank, certainly of no less or greater rank than one would envisage in a member of the Legal Services Board. Removing the appointment of members of the board from simply the Secretary of State—who can appoint anybody—to the mechanisms used for office holders seems a sensible way of proceeding.
	We will later debate in Amendment No. 5 and the amendments grouped with it the proposal that the appointments be made with the concurrence of the Lord Chief Justice. I am sure that the objectives of those who tabled those amendments are exactly the same as mine—that is, to ensure independence, integrity and weight. In my view, it is far better to go to the machinery that we have in place, although it may need some amendment. It would require us to amend the first part of Schedule 14 to the Act to include members of the board as appropriate office holders, which could be done by a simple order by the Lord Chancellor. But we believe that the Lord Chancellor should be the person who makes the appointment and recommendation from a selection by the commission, and it is Her Majesty's appointment that guarantees independence. I beg to move.

Lord Hunt of Wirral: I always find it very difficult to understand why the Government decided to abolish the post of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor. No doubt one day it will be explained, but I have not yet had a proper explanation.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I do not think that we have abolished it. My noble and learned friend is the Lord Chancellor and the Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs.

Lord Hunt of Wirral: That was the position on 12 June 2003, but on 11 June 2003 we had a press release from No. 10 Downing Street that said that the post of Lord Chancellor was abolished.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I am telling the noble Lord what we did, not what any press release might have said.

Lord Hunt of Wirral: That was a very helpful steer as to the comparative powers of the Prime Minister and the Government. But on the Prime Minister's move to abolish the post of Lord Chancellor, which it appears that the Minister and the rest of the Government opposed, I do not want history to be rewritten—and the Minister is pressing me on this.
	If I recall the position correctly, we had the decision of the Prime Minister, Mr Blair, to abolish the post of Lord Chancellor, and we heard in this House that our Lord Chancellor and our Speaker had been abolished. There then arose the question of who would open the proceedings of this Chamber on Friday 12 June 2003. I think that I have the dates reasonably exact. A message came through from No. 10 asking whether this House would kindly agree to give the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor permanent leave of absence—or, at least, leave of absence for that day so that the whole mess could be sorted out. If I recall, this House decided not to give him leave of absence. I then have this wonderful picture, which I shall carry with me to my grave, of a small, rather rotund figure, encompassed in a huge wig and massive cloak, suddenly emerging as the new Lord Chancellor, re-established—

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I do not recognise "rotund" in relation to my noble and learned friend.

Lord Hunt of Wirral: I am not sure that this is a road that I should be walking slowly down, but I wanted to put the record straight. It was this Chamber—this House—that decided that the post of Lord Chancellor could not just be abolished. In the Government's defence, I do not think that anybody had taken advice from the civil servants. Indeed, I have met a number of previous Cabinet Secretaries who have told me with great authority that if only someone had asked the Cabinet Secretary, he would have pointed out all the difficulties in abolishing such a post. However, I was not proposing to go down that route until the Minister pushed me.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I beg the noble Lord's pardon, as I should not heckle—but he is so easily pushed.

Lord Hunt of Wirral: May I answer that comment by saying that I now look forward to the intervention of the noble Lord?

Lord Wedderburn of Charlton: The noble Lord may be aware that there have been moves, under a sort of freedom information parallel, to try to get from 10 Downing Street the envelope on the back of which "the Lord Chancellor is abolished" was written.

Lord Hunt of Wirral: This is a wonderful opportunity for us all to say that we look forward to the moment when that envelope sees the light of day.
	Amendment No. 4 would take us into the Constitutional Reform Act 2005 by making the appointment that of Her Majesty on the recommendation of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor. As the noble Baroness has just pointed out, we still have the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor. There is no doubt that, under the Constitutional Reform Act 2005, there is a procedure which is far better to adopt where the appointment we are now debating is concerned. Although I will be speaking to Amendment No. 5, to which I have attached my name, I look forward very much indeed to hearing the Minister's explanation as to why the Government decided on this course of action so far as the appointment is concerned.
	On several occasions I have heard Ministers reassure us all from the Dispatch Box that there is no need to worry because Nolan principles will apply. Of course, this is very much part and parcel of my experience in government. I was the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster who set up the Nolan committee to examine standards in public life. I recall our discussions with that committee when it established the seven principles of public life. Indeed, there was a feeling that those principles did not need to be spelled out, because they were so much part and parcel of what we all accept in public life; they are selflessness, integrity, objectivity, accountability, openness, honesty and leadership. They are features that have always been there in our public life and it was slightly sad that we needed to spell them out in such terms, but it is good now to have them on record.
	Although the Nolan committee at the time said that standards of behaviour in public could not be said to have declined, there was a perception that they might have. It was that perception that it tackled. It did not in any way substitute any other principles or guidance for the appointment of key people to government quangos, public bodies, et cetera. It did not remove the final arbiter of public appointments, namely the Minister concerned. Indeed, I recall that in his report the noble and learned Lord, Lord Nolan, spelled out in no uncertain terms that, when dealing with appointments, nothing that the Nolan committee produced removed the responsibility of Ministers to make the right appointment. This, therefore, is my response to members of the Government who keep quoting the Nolan principles. Indeed, nothing in the Nolan principles is substituted for the need to take consultations. As in this amendment, nothing in the Nolan report would inhibit Her Majesty the Queen—or, indeed, the Prime Minister—in making what they believed to be the right appointment. The Constitutional Reform Act 2005 laid down a number of key principles and procedures that need to be followed, which is why I was persuaded by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, that this is, indeed, an amendment to which we should hear the Minister's response.

Lord Lyell of Markyate: I support the amendment, at least as a very careful probing amendment. There seems to be a great deal of force in the suggestion that this should be an independent appointment, similar to those applying to district judges, which is after all a very important role but not the highest rank of the judiciary. The principle should certainly apply to members of this board.
	I would be grateful if the Minister could explain the difference here between the Secretary of State and the Lord Chancellor. As a Minister in the Department for Constitutional Affairs, she probably understands that a great deal better than me and probably better than one or two other people. We know that "Secretary of State", when it appears in a Bill, can mean any Secretary of State. It is obviously deeply undesirable that the board that regulates the independent legal professions should be appointed by a Minister such as the Home Secretary, who has such plain conflicts of interest. I do not anticipate that the Government would be likely to move the position in practice so that the Home Secretary could do that, but some Government could do it, and I can quite easily hear such a Government saying that Parliament had approved it because it simply required a Secretary of State to do it. That is another reason for moving away from that wording.
	Assuming that the "Secretary of State" in the mind of the Government—and the Minister will confirm this or not—is meant to refer to the Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs, how do that department, the Minister, or the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, see his functions as Lord Chancellor as compared to his functions as Secretary of State? It may be that it is already on the record, and that I am just ignorant. I look forward, if it is on the record, to having my attention drawn to it, and if it is not, to hearing it expounded by the Minister.

Lord Lloyd of Berwick: First, I apologise for missing the first few moments of the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, on the amendment. I entirely support his reasons for wanting an amendment here. The independence of the Legal Services Board is very important, and that independence depends on who makes the appointments and who is in a position to sack the members. My preference would be, however, unlike on Amendments Nos. 1 and 2, for Amendments Nos. 5 and 7—
	"the concurrence of the Lord Chief Justice"—
	rather than what is being argued for by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas; but provided it is done one way or the other I would be happy.

Lord Kingsland: I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, for the amendments that he tabled. In some respects, they foreshadow the line introduced by Amendment No. 5 and the line introduced by—

Baroness Carnegy of Lour: I hesitate to intervene, but perhaps my noble friend should wait until we have had the Government's reply on the amendment. Am I wrong?

Lord Kingsland: I think, as a Front-Bench spokesman for the Opposition, I am required by convention to speak before the Minister.

Baroness Carnegy of Lour: I apologise.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: The noble Baroness was badly advised in that instance.

Lord Kingsland: Perhaps I do not sound like a member of the Opposition.

Noble Lords: Oh!

Lord Kingsland: Like the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, while applauding Amendments Nos. 10, 13, 15 and 16, my preference is for the approach taken by Amendment No. 5, which is to require the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor to consult and indeed to have "the concurrence of", in the words of the amendment, before making the appointment. Nevertheless, the suggestion made by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, is interesting.
	Where I find myself in complete agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, is over the substitution of the Lord Chancellor for the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State can be any Secretary of State. However unlikely it might seem to your Lordships, I suppose one might foresee in future responsibility for the Legal Services Board being transferred, say, to the Home Secretary. Could your Lordships' House be confident that the Home Secretary would have the same consideration for the rule of law as would the Lord Chancellor? After all, the Lord Chancellor is statutorily bound by the Constitutional Reform Act 2005 to take into account the rule of law. It is an obligation which is expressly placed on the shoulders of the Lord Chancellor. No Secretary of State is similarly encumbered.
	If, as I suspect she is going to when we come to the next group of amendments, the noble Baroness opposes the suggestion that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor should be required to obtain the concurrence of the Lord Chief Justice in making the appointment, her case will be even weaker if she insists on the deciding authority being the Secretary of State and not the Lord Chancellor. At least if it is the Lord Chancellor alone who is taking this decision, he is obliged to take it in the context of his obligations with respect to the rule of law. No Secretary of State is under—

Lord Lyell of Markyate: I am most grateful to my noble friend. He was focusing, as I understand it, on the words of the Constitutional Reform Act 2005 expressing a statutory obligation on the Lord Chancellor, but would he not agree with me that every Minister in any Government is obliged to uphold the rule of law and is governed by the rule of law? Whatever may be added in the Constitutional Reform Act 2005 does not subtract from that obligation which should never be let go of.

Lord Kingsland: Of course I agree with my noble and learned friend that every Minister is bound to uphold the rule of law, but the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor has a specific obligation in relation to the rule of law with respect to the conduct of his Cabinet colleagues. If, by any remote chance, one of his Cabinet colleagues fails to take the rule of law into account in formulating a policy or in drafting a Bill, then the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor is bound by virtue of his obligations under the Constitutional Reform Act 2005 to intervene. So in my submission, the Lord Chancellor does have a very specific and special obligation in relation to the rule of law which is not shared by other Secretaries of State. If, as I have already sadly concluded, the noble Baroness is going to spurn my attempts to convince her about Amendment No. 5, I am going to suggest to her that her case would be strengthened if the decision-maker under this Bill was the Lord Chancellor and not the Secretary of State.
	As to the other amendments, as I think I have indicated already, the approach is better than the one in the Bill but is not as good as the one enshrined in Amendment No. 5.

Viscount Bledisloe: I entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, about the different duty that rests on the Lord Chancellor. Indeed, if he looks at the evidence given by the noble and learned Lord to the Constitution Committee, I think he will find that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor has himself expressly recognised that he has a more positive and a more intense duty than that generally imposed on Ministers. I certainly think it is right that the appointment should be made by him.
	I confess I do not understand why the two sets of amendments are being treated as alternatives. The Lord Chancellor's recommendation can be made with the concurrence of the Lord Chief Justice, whether it is the Secretary of State or the Lord Chancellor. The person should not be appointed without the concurrence of the head of the legal profession because he will be regulating it, and if the people concerned are incompatible, there will be chaos. It is therefore a mistake to treat the two sets of amendments as alternatives—they are cumulative. If the recommendation has to be made by the Lord Chancellor, the need for the concurrence of the Lord Chief Justice is slightly less because the Lord Chancellor would be more likely to consult him. However, they are both highly desirable. The present amendment is essential and would fly in the face of the division of responsibilities which the Lord Chancellor has set out.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I probably need your Lordships' help. We have strayed into debating three groups of amendments. It would be much easier for me if I could deal with them all at the same time, but, sadly, the groupings do not work like that. I will have to be the one with restraint, which does not mean that noble Lords should read anything into what I might then say about anything.

Lord Hunt of Wirral: Would the noble Baroness like to rephrase that sentence?

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: Probably, but I will not try—the noble Lord can do it for me.
	The noble and learned Lord, Lord Lyell, asked me about issues to do with the breakdown of the responsibilities between the Lord Chancellor and the Secretary of State. I would rather deal with that when we come to the amendment on who should have responsibility because I will have more to say then. Equally, some noble Lords prefer Amendment No. 5 to this one, while others see this as being part and parcel of Amendment No. 5. Others feel that if I answer regarding the Secretary of State and the Lord Chancellor, I will have strengthened—or weakened—my case when we come to Amendment No. 5. Let me deal with the specific amendments before us; I hope that as we move through and noble Lords reflect on this, more of a picture will be created.
	Two issues have emerged from our debate: the first is how we ensure independence. Noble Lords would feel varying degrees of comfort, depending on the role of the Lord Chancellor, the Lord Chief Justice and Her Majesty the Queen, but the underlying issue is to make sure that this is done independently. There are ways of ensuring that noble Lords can be comfortable that the board is independent that do not necessarily require these amendments. I have had discussions with noble Lords and various organisations and there is a fundamental principle I do not shy away from as an area where people are looking for ways to be encouraged that this is the case. The Government argue that the way we have set it up is right, and I will say more about that shortly.
	Secondly, we are setting up a regulatory regime. Set practices under this Government and previous Governments for establishing such regimes have served us well. The Financial Services Authority, the Office of Fair Trading, the Commission for Racial Equality and the Competition Commission were all appointed by Secretaries of State; they all serve us well and are considered by everyone to be independent. We have reflected on how best practice has been established and has grown up to set up a regulatory regime. The Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments would play the key role, and the code of practice—noble Lords will be familiar with it, but I am happy to place a copy in the Library—sets out the principles under which that should be done. Ministerial responsibility, merit, independent scrutiny, equal opportunities, probity, openness and transparency, and proportionality are the principles under which appointments are made.
	The code of practice, which runs to some 65 pages, is specific about how these things will be done. We should pay tribute to the commissioner's office for its work in that regard. The code was clarified and amended in part in August 2005. Some noble Lords may not be familiar with it and, before we reach the next stage of our debates, I strongly recommend that they look at it because it contains the principles and the basis on which appointments will be made. We believe that they reflect independence, openness, transparency and merit as the key principles within the seven that I indicated with which one would go about making appointments.
	We have sought to apply regulatory regimes and current best practice. We have been very clear and consistent in saying that that is precisely what we would do. No one has suggested to me that any of the other bodies that have been appointed either under the practices at the time or current practices are anything other than independent, open, transparent and all the things that noble Lords would seek. I begin from that principle, but I also recognise that noble Lords are looking to tease out the matter, to hold more discussions and to look at ways in which we can be even clearer about the independence principle. I look forward to the succession of debates that we will have on the back of this one.
	On the amendment concerning the role of Her Majesty the Queen, of course Her Majesty is eminently qualified to exercise her jurisdiction in relation to some public appointments but, in this case, we do not believe that that is necessary. For the reasons that I have given, we believe that the procedure should be that used in appointing the eminent regulatory bodies that have already been set up, and it is not appropriate to link these appointments to the Judicial Appointments Commission. That commission was set up to do a different job and involves a different set of skills. In my view, it is doing fantastic work but it is a different job from this one, and we think that the regime that we are proposing under the OCPA rules is the best one to take forward.
	I know that I have not addressed all the other issues that will come out in debates on the other amendments, but I hope that I have given the basis for rejecting this amendment.

Lord Lyell of Markyate: I do not know whether it is in order for me to speak briefly. I want to make a point that I do not want to elaborate on but I think that it would be rather hypocritical of me simply to go along with what the Minister said. I believe that an objective analysis might find some difference in the degrees of independence of some of the bodies that have been appointed from time to time. I speak as a lawyer and have obviously declared my interest and I might be thought to be parti pris on this, but the importance of independence of the legal professions in any free society is great. Their duty to stand up to Governments and to the sometimes overweening power of the authorities of whatever sort, sometimes in moments of great unpopularity, is such that we should seriously consider a method of appointment which is even more clearly independent than the others. Of course, I support all the Nolan principles and those that the Minister has so eloquently adumbrated, but I am not completely happy in my own mind that they always work. We should continue to pursue with a good deal of vigour what we are seeking to achieve by this and related amendments.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I completely respect and accept what the noble and learned Lord says about the importance of the legal professions. Nothing that I have said is meant to imply other than the importance of the role that they and, separately, the judiciary play and the value that we place on them. I am simply trying to elaborate the fact that a regulatory regime covering how the consumer, customer, client or whatever relates to someone who is providing a service should have a framework around it, and that is what we have sought to do. I have already indicated that I understand that noble Lords around the Chamber see a need to think about independence as being of especial importance because of the nature of the profession that we are describing. I do not believe that I have a solution before me that I could possibly accept, but that does not mean that the issue is not in my mind.

Lord Wedderburn of Charlton: I have a small point but it may be important in relation to the amendments to come. When the Minister spoke of Her Majesty signifying assent to such appointments—I may be quite wrong and I shall read Hansard carefully to see whether I am—she seemed to suggest that Her Majesty had a separate discretion. That passage of her speech was of some importance. On reflection, is that really what she was saying? If the Prime Minister advised Her Majesty to accept the nominations from a Secretary of State—it would be open to argument—by convention, by constitution or by whatever we have in the mists and airs that surround this curious place, she might be obliged to accept what the Secretary of State said. So no one but the Secretary of State, who no doubt would be bound to consider the rule of law and the like, would decide, but he might be a very young Secretary of State in another place. Would that not be the end of the matter?

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: The role of Her Majesty in determining appointments varies. I would not wish to suggest that Her Majesty would always be bound to accept the recommendation in all circumstances because I do not know how appointments would be set out in individual cases. Certainly Her Majesty would look very carefully at recommendations that came forward from the Prime Minister or Secretary of State.
	On this regulatory regime, my view is that it is inappropriate to ask Her Majesty the Queen to take on that role because we already have a good system in place. I am seeking to make the point that, because it is the legal profession, the issue of independence is one about which noble Lords feel passionately. On this series of amendments, we are probing, challenging and prodding the system as it currently stands to see what more, if anything, might be done. The Government are content that we have a good independent system through the OCPA rules. Quite reasonably, Members of the Committee are challenging that and together we are thinking how to take this forward.

Lord Maclennan of Rogart: I confess that I find the Minister's reply on this amendment somewhat disappointing. Although she has given some praise and support to the changes in regulations in respect of other professions and other bodies, and suggested that the rules applicable to them are, by general consent, working well, in this debate I do not believe that she has applied herself to regulation of the legal professions and services.
	Her tidy implication that what is good for the financial services in this country can be transferred simply to the legal professions seems to me to have ignored the special circumstances and the history of the independence of the legal professions and the provision of legal services. It is not entirely satisfactory to say that she will return to some of these arguments later, because this amendment has been advanced as a proposal very closely following the argument that was deployed by the Government in advocating the arrangements for the appointment of the judiciary in the Constitutional Reform Act 2005. Those arguments are much closer to the present circumstance that we are considering in this amendment than are the arguments about the regulation of financial services. It is extraordinary simply to seek to sidestep it. It is very difficult to understand where the objection comes from to what is proposed here. We are not picking holes in other systems of regulation, but what holes are the Government picking in this proposal? It seems to me that that has not even been hinted at.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I am sorry to disappoint the noble Lord. I shall try to help him understand the direction in which I seek to go.
	I do not accept the principle that the appointment of the judiciary is equivalent to the appointment of a regulatory body determining the relationship between the consumer and the provision of services by the legal profession. They are different. Therefore, the work of the Judicial Appointments Commission and the work of many noble Lords in making the Constitutional Reform Act 2005 as good as it is are very different. I have argued that a closer example of what we are seeking to do is to set up a regulatory regime based on what we know works well. No noble Lord has really challenged that. The noble Lord, Lord Lyell, rightly says that some would be argued against better than others but, essentially, people believe that regulatory regimes work well.
	I have explicitly said that I understand that noble Lords are trying to look beyond what I have said, and say "Well, that is all fine and dandy"—which is what the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, is saying—"but these are different people and need to be thought about in a slightly different way". I have not disputed that or said that it is not an important issue. I have said that I do not equate it with the appointment of the judiciary and the value and critical nature of the independence of that process. It is different. That does not mean that I do not accept that there is an issue which noble Lords wish me to address.

Lord Maclennan of Rogart: I welcome this exchange, which is beginning to focus on some of the questions that have caused concern. It has not been part of our argument that the process of appointment or objectives of the Legal Services Board are identical to those of the judiciary. The Government have provided a means of appointing the judiciary which has been widely accepted. The underlying reasons for that are cognate to those which have motivated the advancing of the amendment. The objective is to ensure that the legal system and services—of which the judges are the pinnacle, but of which those providing legal services below them are an integral part—are not tampered with by the intervention of a Minister who may have absolutely nothing to do with the law.
	The appointment of a Secretary of State to run the show could bring that about. It is clearly a different situation from the appointment of judges. The Government recognise the virtue of this construct. As they did not rely solely on Nolan principles or declaratory statements about openness and transparency in the appointment of judges, so they should not in this sensitive area. In my humble submission, they must go back to the drawing board on this.
	I commend the argument advanced by the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, that the amendment lies nicely with Amendment No. 5 of the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, ensuring that there is a concurrence of the senior judge. Those two amendments are not mutually contradictory; one does not have to pick and choose between them. I hope that the Government will see the force of that argument and accept it.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: It has perhaps escaped the Government that there is a conflict with the Government themselves in so many fields of the legal profession. The independence of the judiciary is guaranteed in this country because there is also an independent legal profession. If the Minister had ever had the experience I have had of appearing in jurisdictions where one has one's doubts about the independence of the judiciary, she would appreciate much more keenly how important it is that the legal profession retains its independence and is seen to do so by any means possible. That is why an analogy with other bodies or professions which are subject to regulatory regimes is inappropriate. I am not claiming that the legal profession is above everything else but it has a particular role to play in the constitution of this country: that is, the independent role of people who will stand up and shout against the Government. The history of this country has been illuminated by lawyers who have been prepared to do that. To this day, the arguments against government are pursued not only in the courts of this country but also in the European Court of Human Rights. Standing up against the Government is in large part what the legal profession is about. If the Government are going to introduce a body which is to control, to regulate, the legal profession it is in their interest to ensure that it is seen to be as independent as possible of government.
	The Home Secretary is a Secretary of State. Many times during the past few months the current Home Secretary has criticised the judiciary and lawyers because of this conflict. He does not stand in the same position as the Lord Chancellor, who has that statutory obligation regarding the rule of law. He is a person who gets involved on the government side. It would be disastrous if it were thought that a Secretary of State could put the squeeze on the legal profession in one way or another because he was not happy with the independent stance it was taking. It is an important point of principle that we have to pursue.
	Does the noble Lord agree that there is experience on the Continent, not least as the Weimar Republic gave way to the autocratic regime that followed, that judges, however much they might try to resist the power of the state, are in a much worse position to do so if they are not addressed by an independent advocate and the equivalent of what we have seen as the Bar in this country? It is a way in which the independence of the judiciary is surely linked to the independence of the profession which, if it is not independent, retracts from the independence of the judiciary itself.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: This has been illustrated all over the world, perhaps critically in South Africa in the days of apartheid. Some of the lawyers who made their names at that time are now luminaries of the legal profession and the judiciary in this country. All over the world the importance of the integrity and independence of the legal profession is paramount and to the forefront in the preservation of liberty and the basis of constitutional government.
	I hope that we can progress further. There are debates to follow on similar topics. I wait to hear what the Minister says. For the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Lord Kingsland: moved Amendment No. 5:
	Schedule 1, page 112, line 6, at end insert "with the concurrence of the Lord Chief Justice"

Lord Kingsland: Amendment No. 5 and the other grouped amendments raise issues which have been foreshadowed in the debate just concluded. The wording of Amendments Nos. 5, 7 and 12 is entirely that of the noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen, whose name is rightly one of the names in support of the amendments. The issue is simply that the Bill as it stands puts too much power in the hands of a Minister both in relation to the appointment and the removal of the chairman and members of the Legal Services Board. This is so in spite of recommendations that came from the review conducted by Sir David Clementi and from the Joint Committee on the draft Legal Services Bill chaired by my noble friend Lord Hunt.
	In the final report of his review, Sir David concluded that these appointments should be made by the Secretary of State in consultation with a senior member of the judiciary. It is quite clear from looking at the evidence that was given to the Joint Committee in written form or orally that a large number of witnesses were extremely concerned about the proposed manner of appointment to the board. Those concerns were reflected in the committee's final report. The Joint Committee recommended that appointments to the board should be made only after full consultation with the Lord Chief Justice.
	Your Lordships may recall the response of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor at Second Reading when he referred to the Lord Chief Justice as being somebody who consumers,
	"rightly see ... as another lawyer in the process".—[Official Report, 6/12/06; col. 1164.]
	Of course, although he started out as a member of the legal profession, the Lord Chief Justice is a judge. He is, indeed, the head of the judiciary; and I hope that, on reflection, the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor feels that he may have overstepped the mark somewhat in making his observation.
	Nevertheless, it is not just a question of the factual situation; it is also a question of perception. It is vital that the system is seen to be independent and that appointments to the Legal Services Board are seen to be wholly independent of government influence. Running through the Bill, one cannot help but form the opposite impression. It is not just in appointment and dismissal that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor has such a powerful role; there are other matters in relation to the operation of the Legal Services Board where, in our view, the Lord Chancellor—or the Secretary of State, as he is described in the Bill—has overweening powers.
	It is for those reasons that we tabled these amendments. Some powerful speeches were made at Second Reading about the importance of the independence of the legal profession. We heard a most eloquent speech from the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, in winding up on the previous group of amendments. I do not propose to add to that in any way because I think the subject has already been adequately dealt with by other Members of the Committee. We on these Benches regard this amendment as crucial. I beg to move.

Lord Neill of Bladen: My name is also on this amendment and it is correct that its language was my suggestion. I communicated it to colleagues in this House some time before Christmas. I was a party to the recommendation of the Joint Committee, which used different language. It recommended that the appointment of the chairman should be made,
	"after full consultation with the Lord Chief Justice".
	I shall come in a moment to say why I have changed my mind and prefer the formula which noble Lords have before them now and which has been taken up by my noble friend.
	Noble Lords will find that recommendation 10 comes out of paragraph 142, which is part of chapter 4 of the committee's two-volume report. It is one of the things which persuaded me, having for the first time been put on a pre-legislative committee, of the important role that a committee can perform once a draft Bill is in existence. It can then assemble evidence from all parts of the kingdom, reflecting all shades of opinion, as to what people think of a sharpened up proposal post-Clementi.
	One of the main points in the evidence which struck me—noble Lords will find it in volume 1, chapter 4 of the report—is the degree of fear being expressed by very different people about the threat to the independence of the legal profession. It is very striking. When noble Lords get a chance to look at page 42 of volume 1 of the report, they will see a list in footnote 119 of all the people who expressed worry about this topic. I shall give the Committee a couple of examples of the wide spectrum of opinion on this issue. One comes from a source which the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, were he still with us today, might say is a typical example of lawyers feathering their own nest. The example comes from the evidence that we received from Clifford Chance, which was once upon a time in the City. It said:
	"The independence of the profession has attracted high calibre entrants to it and contributed to the success of UK law firms in overseas markets. Interference with this independence, or even with the perception of such interference, will only have a negative effect, both on success in recruiting high quality applicants and on the brand of 'solicitor' in overseas markets".
	From the other end of the spectrum—if I may put it that way—the Law Centres Federation said:
	"We share the concerns of others, about proposals for the appointments to the Legal Services Board to be made by the Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs. In our view, this will not give sufficient confidence in the LSB's independence from Government".
	This is quoted in paragraph 134. People have seized on who will fill the key post of chairman of this newly created body, with its wide jurisdiction and powers to give direction to the front-line regulators. That is the breadth of the anxiety which is felt. Sir David Clementi used the first formula that we had in our report,
	"after consultation with the senior judiciary".
	Noble Lords will find that quoted in paragraph 139.
	Perhaps I may mention a point on which I touched at Second Reading and which we ought to keep in our minds as we look at the evidence as the Bill is debated and we hear more from overseas. We have received evidence, particularly from the president of the Law Society, of comments made in overseas legal centres and cities by those who, she suggested, were rather jealous of the big inroads which the English legal profession had made into the legal profession within the European Community. They were using this Bill as an argument for saying, "Well, you're really ceasing to be independent in the UK. You're having a government-dominated system". I have not heard this said first hand, but I want to keep an eye on it. I hope that the Government, equally, will watch it to see how much reality there is in it.
	Even if we set aside the overseas dimension and forget completely how we will be regarded from overseas, how will we be regarded internally? I think that I have said enough to show that we have received a lot of evidence from within this country of concerns about independence. This is number one in the list we made in the report of the points at which independence is seen as being under threat. The numerous powers vested in the Secretary of State is another point, but independence is number one in the list.
	Why do we wish to insert the words, "with the concurrence of the Lord Chief Justice"? It is really very simple. I thought back on my career as a barrister and remembered cases in my experience where the relevant statutory requirement has stated that, "X must be consulted before such and such an act can be done by a Minister". I have come across unfortunate examples of what has turned out to be perfunctory consultation. In other words, the Minister says, "Yes, I wrote him a letter saying, 'This is what I propose to do, but I should like to hear within seven days any comments you have to make'". So far as the law is concerned, provided the letter is written in good faith, that is "consultation". I have become worried about it as being a fetter in any way.
	If one can suppose that there could ever come a time in this country when the judiciary was not best of friends with the Executive, or when the Executive were to criticise the judiciary, one can imagine a situation in which consultation would not be enough. We therefore propose that the Lord Chief Justice's involvement should be set at a higher level. The Lord Chief Justice would have to concur in the appointment and not merely to have been consulted.

Lord Lloyd of Berwick: I support the amendment. I agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen, has just said, in particular, his reasons for preferring,
	"concurrence of the Lord Chief Justice",
	to "consultation". I shall say no more on the importance of the independence of the legal profession, because it was so well covered by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas. The analogy of other regulatory bodies seems to be far removed from the importance of ensuring the independence of the legal profession.
	I shall say a brief word in support of what the noble Lord said about perception. As many of your Lordships will remember, perception was a key feature in the argument which the Government used during the passing of the Constitutional Reform Act. It was said over and again that the Law Lords, for example, must be removed from this building to the Middlesex Guildhall because they were not perceived to be independent so long as they were sitting here. If perception is important from that point of view, surely it is equally, perhaps even more, important from the point of view of the establishment of this body. If the chairman of the Legal Services Board is appointed by a Minister, it will be perceived by people—perhaps not by people with as much knowledge of these things as we have, but by ordinary people—as making the profession less independent of the Government than it should be. If that is true of the appointment of the chairman and members of the LSB, it is surely even more true of their removal from office, which, again, can be done by the Secretary of State. That point was not greatly emphasised by the noble Lord, but it does arise under Amendment No. 24. The provision to which it relates must be amended for the very same reasons. The dismissal of the chairman and members of the LSB seems to be absolutely contrary to any idea that the body is independent of the Government. I hope that the amendment will be approved in due course, as well as Amendment No. 24.

Lord Wedderburn of Charlton: I wish to make a small point, without any notes. It may be thought that these arguments are advanced merely by great luminaries of the law, of whom there are many in your Lordships' House, such as those who have spoken—those at the top of the profession. My plea is for those at the bottom of the profession. I more or less abandoned my limited practice to remain in academic life and to take part in the proceedings of your Lordships' House in the 1970s. But I well know from my own case and that of students, whom I regularly saw go to the Bar, that the most important thing that is said to you, sometimes by people with whose outlook you violently disagree, is that you must say what you think is right. That belief, inculcated into a profession, is at the centre of what noble Lords have come to term "independence". It may be thought that independence is being talked of as some great luxury, but it is not a luxury; young barristers come to observe it as integral to their role.
	I am not saying, and I do not take other noble Lords who have spoken as saying, that the Government intend to interfere with that. But I can say with total conviction that if young students of mine were going from my seminars into a profession regulated by a board—I emphasise heavily the word "regulated"—they would think twice about whether they still intended to occupy their position as they rose through the ranks of their chosen branch.
	It is therefore essential that young students, who have no direct voice in your Lordships' House, know and can see in legislation that a new regulatory power introduced by the Government over the profession that they intend to enter is appointed and exercises its powers with the maximum number of conditions imposed. They must be able to see that those whom they recognise as reasonably independent of government have a place in such matters. I believe that the Government will come to accept that that must be made clear in the Bill because I believe that they intend that the profession should remain independent. However, the profession must be made clearly to appear, from a student's point of view, to be still in that condition.

Baroness Carnegy of Lour: I see sitting in the Chamber no fewer than five noble and learned Lords from Scotland, so I hesitate to rise. But I have to point out that the Law Society of Scotland, somewhat surprisingly, feels very strongly about these amendments; it is strongly in favour of them. This part of the Bill applies entirely to England and Wales, but the Law Society of Scotland believes that, should it be enacted as it stands, a politically appointed regulatory body over Scotland's regulatory bodies may be established or at least proposed.
	The Scots Parliament has just legislated for legal services, having passed the Legal Profession and Legal Aid (Scotland) Bill before Christmas. The Bill does not contain provisions for a regulatory board but provides for a complaints commission. During the passage of that part of the Bill, the Parliament inserted a provision that the senior judge in Scotland, the Lord President of the Court of Session, should play a part both in the appointment to the commission and in the provisions for dismissal. That was felt strongly in Scotland. The Law Society of Scotland very much hopes that Parliament here will ensure that such arrangements exist for the regulatory board.
	I was somewhat surprised to hear the Minister keep suggesting that the regulatory board is just like any other regulatory board and that there does not have to be any difference in the way appointments are made. But to regulate the regulators of an independent legal profession is a very different thing. My view is that in Scotland, a much smaller country where people see one another all the time and know one another very well, it would be even more important than in England and Wales to have an independent regulatory board. I make that point because it is interesting that the implications of this Bill go further than England and Wales.

Lord Lyell of Markyate: I strongly support almost everything that has been said. I am sure that it is right that the concurrence of the Lord Chief Justice be required, for exactly the reasons given by the noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen. I also agree with the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, that it is not a question of one thing or the other; these amendments tie in together and there is strength in that. A triangle is much stronger than a single limb. We need at least a triangle, or all the strength you can get, to maintain a free society.
	We are discussing the concurrence of the Lord Chief Justice, but I hope that we will return to and accept the position of the Lord Chancellor within the constitution. I question what the noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen, said only in the sense that I think he was using irony during a portion of his speech, and I learnt when I was quite young in politics that irony is no good because the ironic point is missed.
	I do not want to put my next point too strongly, but it is difficult not to. The past few years have seen some absolutely lamentable criticism of the judiciary by those in high ministerial office, which ought never, ever to have taken place, and which fortunately has been slapped down recently by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor. But it did happen, and it is very important to fight against it.
	As the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, pointed out, a legal profession that will support the judiciary in its independence and a free press that will report what is argued in court so that the whole country can read it are bulwarks of our free society. I am sure that the noble Baroness and the Government agree in principle with all those sentiments. I hope that they will help us to reflect them in the proper construction of this Bill.

Lord Bach: What the Joint Committee said on this cannot be taken as gospel or as binding what this Committee decides to do. But it is worth repeating the majority view of the Joint Committee—the noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen, has already referred to it—in paragraphs 142 and 144 of volume 1 of its report. The committee concluded that the Secretary of State should do the appointing but only after full consultation with the Lord Chief Justice. I argue that it reached that view because Sir David Clementi came to the same conclusion. Sir David was quoted by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, who so ably chaired the committee, as saying:
	"Given the need for independence, and the objective of the rule of law, it seems right that the judiciary should be involved in the appointment".
	He continued:
	"The proposal of this Review is that the appointment by the Chairman and Chief Executive should be made by the Secretary of State in consultation with a senior member of the judiciary".
	The Committee should consider carefully that view when deciding on this Bill. It is worth emphasising that Sir David Clementi did not support the conclusion that the appointment had to be made with the "approval" of the Lord Chief Justice, or with his "concurrence"—if there is any difference in the meaning of those two words.

Lord Hunt of Wirral: I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bach, for reminding us of, I think, the only division that we had in the Joint Committee. No, there were two divisions, but this division was initiated by the noble Lord himself, in relation to the words that he has just referred to. This is in no way critical of the noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen, as he was absent for very good reasons, but, had he been present, the vote would have been tied. I say that only because there were differing views within the Joint Committee. Therefore, I would not disagree with a word that the noble Lord, Lord Bach, has just said—that was our conclusion.
	But even that conclusion does not meet with the approval of the Government and it is right to remind ourselves that, until this moment, the Government have not given ground on anything in this area, whether on "in full consultation with", or "with the concurrence of", the Lord Chief Justice. Of course, as the noble Lord, Lord Bach, will know, my preference in that division was for the word to be "concurrence" rather than "consultation". It was an amendment at the time—

Lord Bach: With the approval of the Lord Chief Justice.

Lord Hunt of Wirral: If I can just finish the sentence. I prefer that the Lord Chief Justice should have to give his imprimatur—he should concur with, or approve of, the appointment. There were differing views, which I acknowledge, but as I was the chairman of the Joint Committee, I would want to go with the report of the committee and that is to what I now speak.
	What has the response of the Government been? I quote from the speech of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor. At Second Reading, he dismissed our recommendation in these terms:
	"The Joint Committee ... suggested that such appointments and dismissals should be made only after full consultation with the Lord Chief Justice. While I can see why that would give comfort to members of the legal profession, I have to say it gives little comfort to consumers"—
	he continued with words that I am sure, or I hope, he now regrets—
	"who rightly see the Lord Chief Justice, although he is a man beyond reproach, as another lawyer in the process".—[Official Report, 6/12/06; col. 1164.]
	I wanted to emphasise the importance of knocking that down. The Lord Chief Justice is not just another lawyer in the process; he is a judge. He is not only a judge; he is the most senior judge. He is a judge of independence and integrity who is seen as having that independence and as being full of integrity. He is in a special position. That is why the noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen, is right to single out the Lord Chief Justice—although there are differing views as to whether the wording should be "approval", "concurrence", or "in full consultation with". This is really the whole point of the debate—to try to persuade the Government that there should be something in the Bill that makes it clear that the Lord Chief Justice has to be involved in the appointment.
	To some extent we are in the dark, as came out in the previous debate. We do not know who is going to be the Secretary of State. At the moment we are in abeyance. We do not know who is going to be the Prime Minister later this year, although we have our suspicions. We are told by Mr Brown that it will probably be him. I do not know whether it will be. What I know is that this House sadly failed to persuade the Government that the Lord Chancellor should be a Member of this House. It also failed to persuade the Government in a number of other respects—that he should be a lawyer and so on. Therefore, later this year when Royal Assent is looming for the Legal Services Bill, we may be faced with a Secretary of State who is not in this House, who is not a lawyer and who is first and foremost a party person. Indeed, there are some who are clearly seen as party people, while others are seen as more statesmanlike. I do not know. The Minister indicates that it may be her, in which case a lot of my fears are removed. But it may be anybody.
	When we are dealing with the appointment of a quasi non-governmental organisation—a quango—that is going to regulate an independent legal profession, a signal needs to be sent. As the president of the Law Society and chairman of the Bar have constantly reminded us, there are foreign, protectionist jurisdictions that would love to have the opportunity of pointing the finger at the legal profession in England and Wales, saying that it is controlled by government and giving examples.
	The Minister will recall that our Joint Committee was concerned that there were a number of references to the Secretary of State—in fact, there were 111. When I revealed at Second Reading that the number of references to the Secretary of State had increased from 111 to 288, I placed somebody's health in jeopardy; it is the only time that I have ever been interrupted in Hansard—it is at col. 1180—by a noble Lord saying, "Good gracious!". But the Minister has sought to reassure me by saying that,
	"the number of times the Secretary of State is mentioned does not necessarily correlate to the number of powers he exercises. In addition, I would also like to stress that we have sought to remove the Secretary of State's role in respect of a number of different functions".
	Fine, but still the number has gone up and it was calculated on exactly the same basis—not the number of functions but the number of references. The number has still gone up from 111 to 288. The Bill grows and so does the role of the Secretary of State.
	In that context, it becomes increasingly important that the power of appointment and indeed the power of removal should be seen as a power exercised by a non-political Minister. We would have far preferred it to be a Lord Chancellor in the mould of predecessors in that office. Nevertheless, if the power is to be exercised, it must be done at least in consultation with and, as the noble Lord's amendment says, with the concurrence of the Lord Chief Justice, which in practical effect would be more or less the same thing, but we can debate that. Certainly the Lord Chief Justice should be named in the Bill as not just another lawyer and not just as a representative of a consumer organisation, but as the symbol of an independent legal profession of the greatest integrity respected across the world. That is why the Minister must start to give ground and begin to explain to us what she would accept and what the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor would accept, which would communicate right across the world that nothing is going to change and that the English and Welsh legal system will still be the independent legal profession that is widely respected globally.

Lord Bach: I have listened with great interest to what the noble Lord has had to say on this amendment. However, can he explain to the Committee how "full consultation with" is somehow the same as or the equivalent of "concurrence" or "approval"? I do not see that they are the same at all.

Lord Hunt of Wirral: If the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chief Justice were consulted about a person and he said, "No, you can't possibly have that individual chairing the Legal Services Board", or whatever, I may be wrong but I cannot believe that the Secretary of State would ignore that. I suppose that is what gives rise to this issue. I look forward to the noble Lord's support if we ever propose an amendment that includes the Lord Chief Justice in the Bill as being an individual with whom the Secretary of State should consult. Although I have probably not persuaded the noble Lord, I hope that I have explained that, in practical terms, the phrases would be more or less the same.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: This has been a debate of great passion and I will think very carefully about all that has been said. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy of Lour. I knew when I saw her in the Chamber that I needed to have the Scottish information in front of me. Indeed, she is absolutely right. The Scottish Parliament has taken a view on the Scottish Legal Complaints Commission and the role of the Lord President of the Court of Session exactly as she identified. I do not accept her briefing about the potential for some kind of superstructure. I have not received a copy myself, but I will look carefully at what the Law Society of Scotland is saying.
	I was trying to say in our previous debates, clearly not as effectively as I would wish, that the model of regulation is one from which I begin. It is not an attempt to say that I do not recognise the importance and value of the independence of the legal professions at all. It is to say that the model of regulation—because this is a regulatory regime—is the one from which we begin. But I take the points that have been made about independence. I hope that Committee Members will realise that although I will not agree to the amendments, I none the less understand the point that has been made and I am thinking carefully about these issues and listening very carefully to what has been said.
	I cannot resist going back to the 288 references, because I went through them on the back of what the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, said at Second Reading. There were so many of them. A whole range of other clauses—45 clauses have been added over time—are actually about the Secretary of State being the conduit back to Parliament, so although it feels like a huge number, I ask Committee Members who are concerned about it to recognise that it is quite often the best and most effective way of making sure that, for example, we have affirmative action by the Government. Indeed, the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee refers in a number of cases to that. Although it feels like a huge number, Committee Members should recognise that the vast majority are positive because they are ways in which Parliament is able to hold the Government to account about what is happening.
	My right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has been very careful never actually to say that he expects to be Prime Minister. He has said that decisions will be made by whoever leads the Labour Party and is therefore Prime Minister. For my part, I will be perfectly delighted if he becomes Prime Minister, but he has never said it and I should make that clear.
	The noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen, and other noble Lords made interesting points. I am grateful to the chairman of the Law Society and indeed the chairman of the Bar Council, who have discussed the international perspective with me. I will spend a weekend in Dresden with the Justice and Home Affairs Council meeting of Ministers under the presidency of the German Justice Minister, and I have already planned to talk to her about the position. I know that the German Bar has often been raised as an issue. I have also talked to the European Commissioner for Competition, Neelie Kroes, in my capacity as the representative of the DCA on European Union matters. She is very keen and interested in what we are doing on legal services and has a positive perspective about the opportunities that there could be.
	I have not received any representations of any kind from international bodies, and I do not believe that there have been any to the department about what this might do, but I will do my own research by talking to colleagues in other countries. If I find any information, I will put it to your Lordships' House as well as to my colleagues in the department.
	The noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen, also mentioned the value of pre-legislative scrutiny. I agree completely. The importance of that may be the only thing I agree with him completely about.
	My noble and learned friend's remarks have been referred to two or three times. He was not referring to his own view of either the office or the office holder of Lord Chief Justice, which both he and I would hold in the highest esteem, both as an individual and as an office. He was referring to the perception that exists—of which I have heard. I am not saying for a second that it is correct, but there is a perception that the Lord Chief Justice is an eminent lawyer, of the profession and therefore part of it. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, talked about perception in the context of the Constitutional Reform Act 2005. Inevitably, if you are trying to deal with consumer confidence, you have to be alive to the issue of perception. It is not the prime reason why I do not accept the amendment, but it is important. My noble and learned friend was referring to that. He would be the first to argue the eminence of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Phillips, and the first at the barricades to support the role of the Lord Chief Justice, so I hope that his words will be taken in that context. I am positive that that is what he meant, having looked at Hansard. We should not forget that perception is important, and think about it in this context.
	There are lots of issues relating to the debate about concurrence or consultation. I understand what the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, is saying and agree with the differences that my noble friend made between the two. The noble Lord argued that you could not actually appoint somebody if you were doing it in consultation with anybody else and they disagreed with you. But other organisations would feel strongly that they should also be consulted, not least perhaps some of the more eminent consumer organisations that have worked closely on this Bill and feel passionately about the importance of the issue, and there may be others. We are not saying under any circumstances that the Lord Chancellor would not consult people; we are saying that we do not want that specified in the Bill. If an amendment were proposed to make a change about consultation, I fear that the Government would reject that too. We do not think that it is right to have one individual as the only person who would be consulted. There would be opportunities—indeed necessities—when the Secretary of State concerned would be keen to consult people about the right appointment.

Lord Hunt of Wirral: I am disappointed to hear what the Minister has just said, as will be all the members of the Joint Committee. The noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor used "rightly". It is all well and good to say that consumers may see the Lord Chief Justice,
	"as another lawyer in the process",
	but he said that they,
	"rightly see the Lord Chief Justice ... as another lawyer in the process".—[Official Report, 6/12/06; col. 1164.]
	I do not see how any other interpretation can be drawn. The Minister said that, having read it all, she is sure that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor did not really mean what we say he meant, but he did say "rightly". I hope that he will participate in our debates at some stage and take the opportunity to put the record straight. I also hope that the Minister is not closing the door as she appeared to indicate, but is prepared to reflect on the considerable body of opinion that has been expressed in this Committee. Many more could have participated but we have already had 45 minutes and that is long enough. I hope that she will still think about the points that have been made.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My noble and learned friend was indicating the views of consumer organisations and groups and not his particular views. I cannot do anything about the interpretation that the Committee chooses to put on the remarks, but they know my noble and learned friend well and it is known that he holds in high regard the importance of the office of the Lord Chief Justice and would not consider him in any way, shape or form as just another lawyer—far from it. However, it is clear that there is a perception that organisations do not differentiate, and why should they? Until I was involved in your Lordships' House I did not know the background, history and role of the Lord Chief Justice, so many organisations and individuals, equally, would not know and would see it as part of the same profession.
	There is a concern in any form of regulation—we had this in discussions about the then Compensation Bill—that those who are looking to be part of this should be independent. It is the essence of the debate we are having.
	I am closing the door on this amendment, which would not be acceptable to my noble and learned friend. As I have indicated, I am not closing the door on the question of independence and ensuring that there are ways that we can look carefully at that. I would not wish to suggest to your Lordships, were this amendment to be voted on this evening or returned to, that the Government could change their mind. I am sorry to disappoint all noble Lords on that basis—it is not my desire to. I am not closing the door to thinking carefully about the independence point, but I do not believe that we address it successfully via this amendment, not least because we believe that the rules by which we appoint people and the safeguards built into them work well. Noble Lords may disagree with that, but we as a Government believe they have worked well and—

Lord Wedderburn of Charlton: I—

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: May I finish my point? Also, there is a perception, wrong though it may be, about the Lord Chief Justice in that context. Putting those two things together leads me to the view that I could not accept the amendment.

Lord Wedderburn of Charlton: Can I just get clear what the noble Baroness is saying? For all the distance between us, I put the question as if I were her noble friend, as I still feel I am. This is important: is she saying that the Government will carefully think again about reinforcing the clear appearance of independence on the face of the Bill?

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I will certainly consider how we might address any further concerns about independence. Whether that would be on the face of the Bill I could not commit to, not least because I am not the policy Minister. That would be for my colleague Bridget Prentice to consider carefully, and anyway it might not be necessary. I am not suggesting that noble Lords think it is not necessary, but there are a number of routes that one might go down. I am not going to say definitively one thing or another.
	I tried to be clear that I could not accept this amendment, but that I get the point about independence and will explore that, not least with noble Lords who have raised it with me.

Lord Maclennan of Rogart: I just want this clarified a little further. In saying that she does not intend to consider this amendment further, is the Minister setting her face against the concurrence point, or against the involvement of the Lord Chief Justice—which, after all, was a recommendation of the Clementi report, and was supposed to lie at the base of the Government's Bill?

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: The Government's position is that we set our face against the involvement of the Lord Chief Justice being on the face of the Bill. I think I said at Second Reading, and say again now categorically, that there may well be circumstances where the Secretary of State or Lord Chancellor would wish to consult the Lord Chief Justice and others. It may happen. That does not satisfy the noble Lord and I do not expect it to, but I am not—

Lord Neill of Bladen: Can the Minister clarify what she has just now said twice, about independence not being on the face of the Bill but somewhere else? The place where you would expect to find independence being protected, with this new framework being created, is in the Bill itself, so that readers could see it was there. Anything that is not in the Bill does not carry the will of Parliament.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: Yes indeed, and the noble Lord's position is absolutely clear. I was indicating that the principle that Members of the Committee are looking for is to ensure that we have fully considered the issue of independence and whether further steps could be taken. Noble Lords are clearly suggesting that they would not be satisfied unless those steps were on the face of the Bill. I take that away, and I listen with great care. I was not committing to the noble Lord, Lord Wedderburn, that there would be something on the face of the Bill that I might return to, because I simply do not know. I will not make a commitment that I cannot guarantee I could honour.
	I understand the points being made. Noble Lords may decide that they want to vote at this juncture and do whatever is the will of the Committee. It is entirely up to your Lordships, of course. I will not commit further than that because I cannot. We are absolutely not willing to accept this amendment, or an amendment on consultation.

Lord Kingsland: I had almost forgotten that I introduced this amendment, there having been so many eloquent speeches made on all sides in support of it. I am not going to attempt to sum them up; your Lordships have all spoken so perceptively about these issues that nothing further needs to be added. I will just draw out two matters which I think are particularly germane to the way the noble Baroness has responded on the issue of independence.
	First, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, rightly reminded us that the Constitutional Reform Act 2005 was driven wholly by perceptions. The Government were at pains to emphasise that there was absolutely no evidence whatever that any judge had ever been suborned; and the only reason why the Appellate Committee was being physically removed from your Lordships' House and renamed was because there might be a perception that it was not independent. It is a mystery to me why that should have been the over-riding consideration for the 2005 Act yet not a consideration at all when it comes to this Bill. As all your Lordships have emphasised, the perception of independence is almost as important as the fact of independence.
	The second issue has already to some extent been rehearsed in the earlier amendments introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford—the link between the independence of the judiciary and that of the legal profession. For liberty to be entrenched in our society, it is vital that both are independent. You cannot have an independent judiciary if you do not have an independent profession. With great respect to the noble Baroness, this is the real flaw in her argument. In responding earlier to the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan of Rogart, when he advocated the Judicial Appointments Board as the appropriate model for selecting the Legal Services Board, she said, "We do not see it like that at all. This is a regulatory authority like any other regulatory authority". I suppose she means the authorities that regulate gas or telecommunication. Yet it is because of the link between the independence of the judiciary and that of the profession that this approach by the Government is deeply flawed.
	This is not a regulatory authority like any other. It goes to the heart of the liberties of this country and it cannot be treated like any other regulatory authority. The model of the Judicial Appointments Board, advocated by the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan of Rogart, is a much more appropriate model with which to approach appointments to the Legal Services Board than is, for example, the telecommunications regulator.
	That, in my respectful submission, is the crucial point that I hope the noble Baroness will take away and reflect on between now and Report. She must know that there are strong feelings in the House about this issue. She will know that unless the Government play a different tune when this comes back, this House will vote and we will defeat her. She can be in no doubt about the strength of feeling on this issue. There will have to be movement on the Government's side if we are to find some solution other than one of direct confrontation. We all regard this issue as absolutely central to producing a good Bill. I can see her nodding, but characteristically smiling at the same time. I do not think she is in any doubt about the direction in which we are all heading. Meanwhile, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
	[Amendments Nos. 6 and 7 not moved.]

Baroness Turner of Camden: I remind noble Lords that if Amendment No. 8 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment No. 9 because of pre-emption.

Lord Kingsland: moved Amendment No. 8:
	Schedule 1 , page 112, line 12, leave out sub-paragraph (3)

Lord Kingsland: Amendment No. 8 refers to a line in Volume II of the Bill, on page 112, where it refers to the powers of the Secretary of State to determine the size of the Legal Services Board. Paragraph 1(3) of Schedule 1 states:
	"The Secretary of State may by order amend sub-paragraph (1) by substituting for the limit on the maximum number of persons for the time being specified in paragraph (c) of that sub-paragraph a different limit".
	On the face of it, this is a quite extraordinary provision, because it suggests that, by what I understand to be a negative order, the Secretary of State can expand or contract the size of the board. It must be perfectly clear to the Minister as to the scope that that might give to a Secretary of State for manipulating the size of the board and therefore producing decisions from the board that would be different from those produced by a board differently constituted. The Minister may have a benign explanation for this measure; I cannot anticipate what she is going to say. But if the power is unconstrained, as it appears to be, I suggest that it is wholly inappropriate. We would certainly, on Report, in the absence of any explanation or offer to constrain the power in some way, want to remove it from the Bill. I beg to move.

Lord Hunt of Wirral: I strongly support my noble friend. We were treated to a very helpful report from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, which spent quite a bit of time going through the Bill. Indeed, I recommend to noble Lords that we should spend time going through the instances that the committee set out. The Minister started off by saying that the Government would bring forward amendments to meet the concerns and recommendations of that committee, including, presumably, on this amendment and power. It might well short-circuit a number of debates if the Minister could give us greater detail about how she proposes to amend the Bill in line with the committee's recommendations. I recognise that she may not be able to do that immediately, but in the little while before the next day in Committee it would be helpful if she could give some indication of what she intends to do.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I thank the noble Lord for that opportunity. It will not surprise him to hear that I do not want to go into detail on everything now. The position that I hold is that we accept the recommendations on specific points that the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee asked us to consider. There are a number of areas on which it has asked the Government and this Chamber to think further, and we will listen with interest to what is said on those matters.
	I shall give what I hope is the benign explanation of these provisions. We set out in the framework of the Legal Services Board that it should have a lay majority, but we have also been very clear that, as there is regulation of different bodies, expertise and experience is needed on the board as well. In future, the Legal Services Board may take on two or three new areas of regulation that are not currently covered. I shall not speculate on what they might be; they may not exist, but they might. Indeed, there are amendments to the Bill that we shall come to later that suggest at least one area in which that might be the case in future. If that were to happen, the board might reasonably wish to add on someone with expertise in those professions, which would lead to the lay members becoming a minority. So the power is specifically to enable the Lord Chancellor or Secretary of State to come in and, by order, improve the numbers so that the lay members remain the majority. It is reasonable to ask whether, if that is the only circumstance, it should not simply be put in the Bill—but, as always, those are simply the circumstances that we can think of at the moment. I cannot think of any others, but there might be some.
	The issue that the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, raises is that the Lord Chancellor may be able to sneak something under the wire by negative procedure. One way in which to address his concerns would be for me to take the matter away to allow us to make it an affirmative rather than negative resolution. That would mean that, if the numbers were to be expanded, it would have to come through a debate in this Chamber and another place, so nothing could be done that would suggest that the Secretary of State was trying to increase the numbers for other reasons. The noble Lord also has the knowledge of my remarks, which are in Hansard, about the purposes to which the provision will be put. If there were other purposes, the Minister—whether it was me or another Minister—would have to explain in full detail to this Chamber and in another place precisely what was being done and why. I hope that that addresses the noble Lord's concern. He may not wish to answer that directly now, but I put the offer on the table.

Lord Kingsland: I am grateful to the Minister. I am certainly not going to reject the offer of an affirmative resolution, which seems to me a step in the right direction. On the face of it, the explanation that she gave, if not falling wholly into the benign category, is certainly a plausible one. I hope that she will consider, between now and Report, trying to find an alternative form of words to those that appear in the Bill, which might reflect the purposes for which the provision was inserted in the first place, as she describes them. I still take the view that the measure is too widely cast; but she is now on record in Hansard as saying what she is saying. Perhaps, in the intervening time between now and Report, the Minister might consider the drafting of that sub-paragraph to see whether she could make it reflect more accurately the purpose that she set out in her speech. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: moved Amendment No. 9:
	Schedule 1 , page 112, line 12, leave out "Secretary of State" and insert "Lord Chancellor"

Lord Thomas of Gresford: These amendments grouped together give the Minister the opportunity to address a central issue of our previous discussions—why the Secretary of State and not the Lord Chancellor. Amendments Nos. 9, 11 and 17 deal with appointments to the board by the Secretary of State. Amendments Nos. 20 to 23, 25 and 26 deal with the removal from office of members of the board by a Secretary of State. Amendments Nos. 27 to 30 deal with borrowing and accounting, and Amendment No. 36, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, primarily deals with reports to Parliament.
	There are two possibilities why the term "Secretary of State" is introduced. The first is that the Lord Chancellor is now to be regarded as a title of an honorary kind and that his office within the Government is now to be known as Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs, in which case we should cease thinking of the Lord Chancellor as anything other than a title with little power. The second explanation is that the Government envisage that control over the Legal Services Board should pass from the Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs or the Lord Chancellor to another department of government. That is the point at which we all become particularly concerned.
	The position of Lord Chancellor is at the apex of the legal profession. Anybody who has achieved that office is devoid of further ambition because there is nowhere higher to go. It is the absolute pinnacle. Consequently, a person holding the office of Lord Chancellor has been able to hold it without concern for his own personal future or the future of anything else. He fulfils the duties of that office. The office of Secretary of State, on the other hand, may—particularly if the Secretary of State is in the other place—be held by a person with departmental or non-departmental responsibilities. It may be held by an ambitious person, who wishes to make their way and is therefore anxious to please those in power within his or her particular party at a given time. The Secretary of State is a very nebulous concept.
	We believe that appointing members of the board—and, in particular, removing them from office—should remain in the hands of the Lord Chancellor. We still wish to uphold that office, not as a title to be handed around within the Government as a bauble, but as representing a person who, as hitherto, has reached the very top and has no further ambition. The purpose of tabling these amendments is to enable the Government to give us a full explanation of the use of the expression "Secretary of State". I look forward with interest to what the Minister will have to say. I beg to move.

Lord Kingsland: I have already, to some extent, spoken to the substance of this amendment, when I indicated the dangers of a Secretary of State, such as the Home Secretary or the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, taking over responsibility for the Legal Services Board. It would be tempting in those circumstances for one or other of those Secretaries of State to rank other considerations higher than the rule of law. The Lord Chancellor, by contrast, would be obliged to place the rule of law at the head of his considerations in making decisions about the Legal Services Board. For that reason alone, I wholly support the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford.

Lord Hunt of Wirral: So do I. I also strongly support the words of my noble friend. I know that we have debated this already and that reference has been made to the positions of the Lord Chancellor and the Secretary of State under this Bill. We are in something of a quandary, because when we have a Lord Chancellor, who is responsible for the operation of the legal system and is required, under his oath of office, to respect the rule of law, we have confidence that the occupant of that post will follow the example of his learned predecessors and maintain the independence of the legal profession and all the other values that we have talked about in today's debates.
	The transition from a Lord Chancellor to a Secretary of State is an uncomfortable one. This Bill refers only to a Secretary of State, who could be any of the Secretaries of State. We are filled with nervousness about the transitional period. That is why I am very grateful to the noble Lords for tabling this series of amendments and to my noble friend for his amendment—Amendment No. 36, I believe. Responsibilities could be transferred to a Minister whose other departmental responsibilities would cause him or her to give less weight to the importance of maintaining an independent, strong, diverse and effective legal profession. That is where we are all coming from. These are not great party-political issues—far from it. We are united in wanting to see reform of the legal profession that maintains all the very high standards that we have been so proud of. We want to continue being proud of the international standing of the legal profession of England and Wales.
	As I understand it, responsibility for these issues currently rests with the Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs, rather than with the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, as a result of a transfer of functions order, made shortly after that initial decision to abolish the post of Lord Chancellor, which was then reversed. At the time—and I am not criticising anybody in this House—the issues raised by that transfer of responsibility were not properly considered, either publicly or in Parliament. Ensuring that the functions rest with the Lord Chancellor would help significantly to demonstrate to sophisticated international audiences that the new structure for regulation of legal services does not open the legal profession to political control. That, in essence, is what we are talking about: political control from a government Minister. The fact that the Lord Chancellor is required, under his oath of office, to respect the rule of law, would reinforce that.
	If the Bill were to be amended along the lines suggested, it would also be desirable to ensure that the position could not subsequently be changed by a transfer of functions order. This could be done by excluding the functions concerned from the permitted scope of orders under the Ministers of the Crown Act 1975, in much the same way as was done in respect of the Lord Chancellor's functions relating to the judiciary in the Constitutional Reform Act. I very much hope that the Minister might reflect on that. I note that the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Bill refers only to the Lord Chancellor. It would be very helpful if the noble Baroness could explain why that Bill differs so fundamentally from this Bill, which refers to the Secretary of State.

Lord Lyell of Markyate: The noble Baroness has already very kindly said that she will explain the difference between the use of "Secretary of State" and "Lord Chancellor"; I very much look forward to what she has to say on that subject. When the noble and learned Lords, Lord Irvine of Lairg and Lord Mackay of Clashfern, were Lord Chancellor—and, indeed, for the whole of my legal and parliamentary life—it was absolutely axiomatic that if the Government or a member of the Government sought to stray from the law, which sometimes happens, it would be made clear that, if the matter were not immediately corrected, the Lord Chancellor and the law officers would resign. There would be a constitutional crisis of massive proportions. I would like to think that that still applies. I shall listen very carefully to what the noble Baroness says in her explanation.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I have listened with great interest not only to the comments that have been made in the debate on this amendment, but those made in our wide-ranging discussion on questions of independence. Although I do not accept, as noble Lords would expect, that other Secretaries of State would not carry out their role fully, I understand completely what noble Lords are saying about the role of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor. When the Constitutional Reform Act was completed—noble Lords will remember the concordat in that—certain elements were classified. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, referred to the example of the transfer of functions order, which sat in the remit of the two positions embodied in a single person. The legal professions rested with the Secretary of State. That is a very simple explanation of why it ended up there.
	I have listened with great care, and I have said in all these debates that I am keen that we reflect as a Government on the issues where noble Lords are rightly and reasonably saying, "We hear what you say, we do not necessarily agree with you, but we think that you need to think about independence". I know that a number of noble Lords, including the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, who is not in his place, and the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, referred to the fact that my case is weaker because I do not look at this amendment properly and fully. Noble Lords will notice that I am not speaking from notes. Therefore, I am going to accept the amendment. We will have to make consequential amendments to the Bill because I do not think, with the best will in the world, that noble Lords have captured all the references. I am prepared to accept the amendment, but I am not prepared to go as far as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, is asking me to at this point, which is to put something in the Bill that says that you cannot transfer functions. I know, because I have checked, that we do not need another transfer of functions order if I accept the amendment, which goes a long way to doing that. If I accept the amendment, we do not need to do anything else. I hope that noble Lords will recognise the good will in that acceptance towards what they seek to achieve.

Lord Lyell of Markyate: The noble Baroness was going to explain the difference between the Lord Chancellor and the Secretary of State. I was listening very carefully, and if that was the only explanation, I was hoping there might have been some more.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: The explanation that I gave was that, in the concordats with the Constitutional Reform Act, decisions were made about how the different functions would be divided, and that was the way the functions were divided. I am sorry if the noble and learned Lord wanted more, but there is no more. That is it.

On Question, amendment agreed to.
	[Amendment No. 10 not moved.]

Lord Thomas of Gresford: moved Amendment No. 11:
	Schedule 1 , page 112, line 15, leave out "Secretary of State" and insert "Lord Chancellor"
	On Question, amendment agreed to.
	[Amendments Nos. 12 and 13 not moved.]

Lord Lofthouse of Pontefract: had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 13A:
	Schedule 1 , page 112, line 17, leave out "first"

Lord Lofthouse of Pontefract: It has not been my habit, in the 10 years that I have been in this place, to attend legal debates. I have been attracted to do so arising out of the activities of some—I repeat "some"—members of the legal profession who, I believe, have been cheating mine workers. I will not go any further down that lane; my feelings are well documented in debates in this House. Since I have been coming to these debates, I have enjoyed some of them, and I have been bored some of the time. I acknowledge the skills of the senior lawyers and the rest of the lawyer fraternity in this House. Since I have been attending these debates, I feel better informed.
	As the Committee is aware, the Bill states that only the first chair of the LSB will be a non-lawyer. To demonstrate its independence from the profession, and to give confidence to consumers, the non-lawyer criterion should also apply to all future chairs. For the life of me, I cannot understand why the first chair should be a lawyer. What is the reason? My amendment is to leave out "first". I am being looked at from down there; I do not know whether I am confusing someone.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I beg my noble friend's pardon, but I thought he asked why the first chairman should be a lawyer. Maybe I misheard him. He is saying the opposite, which is that the first should be and the rest should be.

Lord Lofthouse of Pontefract: I am saying that he should not be a lawyer. I am not saying that because I have fallen out with some members of the profession in recent times. I really believe that to give confidence to all concerned, it would be better to have a non-lawyer in this position. I cannot understand why the first chairman is to be a lawyer. Stop me if I am wrong. Is it possible that in fact the first chairman could be a lawyer?

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I need to clarify this so I am clear that it is not me who is getting this wrong. The Bill says that the first one is not a lawyer. Noble Lords will agree with me on that. The first chairman should positively be a non-lawyer. Subsequently, we leave it open for the normal rules to apply, because there may be someone with appropriate experience who happens to have been qualified as a lawyer and who we would wish to see appointed, and we do not want to rule that out for ever. The first appointment of the chairman has to be a non-lawyer.

Lord Lofthouse of Pontefract: I thank the Minister very much for that assurance.

[Amendment No. 13A not moved.]

Lord Kingsland: moved Amendment No. 14:
	Schedule 1 , page 112, line 26, leave out "never been" and insert "not within the last ten years practised as"

Lord Kingsland: Amendment No. 14 concerns the definition of a "lay person". Paragraph 2(4) of Schedule 1 contains the definition of a lay person, which prohibits, in all circumstances, anyone who has been,
	"an authorised person in relation to an activity which is a reserved legal activity".
	In other words, it prohibits anyone qualifying as a lay person who at any stage of their career has been a professionally qualified lawyer. In our submission, this prohibition is too severe. I am sure that the noble Baroness can think of a number of examples, as I can, of individuals who, at a very early stage of their lives, qualified as a solicitor or a barrister, and might or might not have practised for a few years, and then went on to do something entirely different, perhaps for as many as 20 years. It seems to me to be unnecessarily limiting the field for selection to exclude people of that sort. Indeed, one might well argue that they were particularly well qualified because they had knowledge of the profession and yet had sufficiently wide experience outside it to put their knowledge in perspective.
	In sum, we believe that the definition in the schedule is too absolutist and that the Government should qualify it in the way that we have set out in the amendment, or find some other way of including that class of people who have had an early experience of the profession and who have moved on to other activities which would otherwise qualify them as lay people, had it not been for the fact that they became professionally qualified and briefly practised early in their career. I beg to move.

Lord Maclennan of Rogart: I support this amendment. I have to confess that I feel a very subjective involvement in its terms since it is at least 10 years since I practised law myself and I have certainly forgotten more law than I ever learnt. But I think that there are still quite a number of people who obtain legal qualifications, practise briefly and go into other lines of business or other professions whom the Government would have no reason to wish to exclude from serving in the way that this Bill provides. It might even be considered an oversight to have been so restrictive in this respect.

Lord Swinfen: I hesitate to intervene in this debate. I do so only because I was rather disappointed that the noble Lord, Lord Lofthouse, failed to move the last amendment. Perhaps the Minister can help me. If the first chairman is to be a lay person, but not any subsequent chairman, could not subsequent chairmen bring with them the baggage of the legal profession and use their position as chairman to lay down the basis for an improved legal career thereafter and therefore rather misuse their post? It is just a point that occurred to me and I think that the noble Lord, Lord Lofthouse, may well have been right in the amendment that he did not move.

Lord Lyell of Markyate: I see this really as a probing amendment, giving the Minister an opportunity for reflection. I can see the good sense of the first chairman not being a lawyer in practical terms and I am sure the word "perception" may emanate from the Ministerial Bench at some point in the reply. But if I had done more homework, I think I could have produced a rather surprising number of people of enormous independence who just happen 35 years before to have qualified as a solicitor or something of that nature, or possibly to have passed the Bar exams and done a pupilage but nothing more, who would be excluded. All I would commend to the Minister is that she might, with the assistance of her department, go away and think about it and see if a sufficiently clear form of words could be found which did not exclude quite a lot of the field.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I am grateful for the contribution of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lyell, on this issue. Indeed, when this amendment was tabled we all started to think about eminent people we know who begin their careers in the law and then become experts, advocates or campaigners in a whole range of things, leading on from their early legal career.
	I think noble Lords know what we are trying to do here. It is very important for there to be a huge statement of confidence in the first chairman bringing in the transition, and we think it right that that should be a lay person. We have said subsequently that that should not be a criterion that is overarching. A number of criteria will be considered. I do not really think I have to say to the noble Lord that someone who is quite clearly coming in to enhance their own career would be spotted through the process along the way. Lots of discussion goes on about the people who put their names forward, so I am less worried about someone doing that than he perhaps is. I am not sure about 10 years, either. I think 10 years is quite recent, particularly in your Lordships' world. But I do take the point about people briefly practising 25 or 30 years ago and then moving on as not being a suggestion that they are linked to the profession. I am very nervous about linking anybody to the profession in that way.
	What I would like to do is take this away. I have had one brief discussion with my noble and learned friend about this today. We wanted to do two things: have a think about what we might do, and talk to the consumer groups that feel very strongly about this to explain our thinking so that we keep that balance right. I will come back with a suggestion perhaps for the next stage. But the point that is being made is that somebody who a very long time ago qualified and practised briefly in law and is the eminent person may be debarred. I had rather hoped that this would be in secondary legislation. This is a classic case of where being able to amend something because you have moved on would be better, but it is in primary legislation so we need to think about how we make sure we do not exclude eminent people of the future. I take the point.

Lord Kingsland: I am most grateful to the noble Baroness. I think she has said enough to give me hope that on Report she will come up with either an amendment or at least a proposal which will meet the concerns that have been expressed. It must make sense to make provision for this category of people, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lyell, said. He can think of a number of people who fall into this category and it would be quite wrong to exclude them from being appointed to the board. I think the noble Baroness has got the point. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
	[Amendments Nos. 15 and 16 not moved.]

Lord Thomas of Gresford: moved Amendment No. 17:
	Schedule 1, page 113, line 17, leave out "Secretary of State" and insert "Lord Chancellor"
	On Question, amendment agreed to.
	[Amendment No. 18 not moved.]

Lord Hunt of Wirral: moved Amendment No. 19:
	Schedule 1, page 113, line 17, at end insert "secure that persons are appointed on merit and in accordance with the principles appearing to them to represent the best practice in making appointments to public office, and must"

Lord Hunt of Wirral: This amendment stands in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Kingsland. Its purpose is to insert in paragraph 3 of Schedule 1, dealing with the Legal Services Board, that, in appointing persons to be ordinary members, the Secretary of State must,
	"secure that persons are appointed on merit and in accordance with the principles appearing to them to represent the best practice in making appointments to public office and must"—
	then the clause continues—
	"have regard to the desirability",
	et cetera. Really, this amendment seeks to do what the Select Committee recommended in our report; namely, that there should be some reference in the Bill to Nolan principles. We have already dealt with Nolan principles, but this amendment would ensure that all the appointments of members of the Legal Services Board had to be made on merit.
	This amendment is not only in line with the recommendation of the Joint Committee, but a number of other bodies have said how strongly they support such an amendment. Of course it follows on from our discussions about the independence of the legal profession. The Bar Council has stated that it believes that this amendment would enshrine the Nolan processes without explicitly referring to them by name, and would ensure that we get the best possible people. In our Joint Committee we recommended that Nolan itself should be in the Bill. We recommended that recruitment by Nolan processes should be included explicitly on the face of the draft Bill. But I think we would recognise that this amendment in effect does that a little more discreetly, because from time to time these principles may well be changed, improved or further amended, so by putting "Nolan" in the Bill we may be unnecessarily restrictive. The Select Committee's belief that adherence to the Nolan principles should underpin all government appointments is strongly held. For the actuality and the appearance of independence, it is important to maintain that there should be a statutory requirement in the Bill to ensure that those principles are followed.
	In effect, the amendment would underpin the independent nature of the members of the board. It is a provision that at all times a majority of members of the board should be lay persons. That is why the previous amendment was so important in ensuring that the definition of "lay person" would not exclude people who in the past have had some legal training or experience. Whatever one feels about the Legal Services Board, I think we are all unanimous in believing that its members have to be the best possible people. That is why we need to ensure that the right processes are followed.
	Comments are always made—indeed, there has been a recent report by a think tank—that some appointments are political or include members of a particular political party. We all want to rise above that in setting up the Legal Services Board, which is why I have much pleasure in moving an amendment that I believe will secure that aim. I beg to move.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: We on these Benches support the amendment. I hope that the Minister will at least give an assurance at this stage, but in our view it is better, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has said, for these principles to appear on the face of the Bill.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I am grateful for the explanation of what noble Lords are seeking to achieve. I agree that the principles should apply—there is no difference between us on that point. As I indicated when I referred to the code of practice, the Commissioner for Public Appointments produces quite a lengthy document—65 pages—which includes the appointment criteria and processes. We would not wish to put this in the Bill; we do not believe that it is required. As the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said, we recognise that things change over time; we do not want to set in stone criteria that may be out of date in a few years because we have moved on to greater and higher principles or the situation has changed, so we would not want to set out anything detailed.
	I know that noble Lords are seeking an assurance on this. Any appointment to a public body by a Minister falls within the remit of the commissioner, who has the duty to scrutinise it. The code of practice is committed to ensuring that appointments are made on merit and are subject to independent scrutiny. They must comply with equal opportunities requirements and are subject to probity, openness, transparency and proportionality. The commissioner and the role of the Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments is engaged when Ministers seek to make appointments, and the commissioner has a duty to scrutinise them.
	The responsibility and duty of the commissioner, engaged by ministerial appointment, combined with the code of practice plus our commitment to the principles provide what noble Lords seek. We would not wish to put such a provision in the Bill because we do not want to run the risk of criteria changing over time and because we think it is unnecessary. That is not to say that we do not agree with the principles behind the amendment, but we do not think it is necessary.

Lord Hunt of Wirral: I am slightly bemused because I heard the noble Baroness say that we should not put in the Bill something that might change; there might be other ways of making appointments. I remind the Minister that the amendment refers to people being appointed on merit,
	"in accordance with the principles appearing to them to represent the best practice in making appointments".
	That is not going to change.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: There is an issue which I did not mention but have been thinking about. I talked about the principles upon which we operate and about the Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments, which works across government. The implication of the amendment could be that a Minister appointing in this set of circumstances did not agree with those principles and would prefer something else. I am not suggesting that any Minister would go by a different set of principles, but let us go through the theoretical proposition. I am a bit nervous about the language that the noble Lord has chosen because it implies that a choice rests with the individual. We believe that there are clear guidelines and principles for appointments made by Ministers; the commissioner has a duty to engage with the Minister at the moment of appointment. The Minister is in that process, because that is the right and proper process; I agree that processes change over time—indeed, the code of practice has been updated to reflect changes in thinking—but I would not want to give the individual Minister the right to disagree with the principles and do something different, and the amendment provides the potential to achieve that.

Lord Hunt of Wirral: I was anxious not to interrupt the Minister because I felt the more she spoke, the more she would come round to the amendment. She has put forward the view that Ministers should not be allowed to depart from the principles which appear to the Government to represent the best practice in making appointments to public office. I agree with her—that is why I have moved the amendment.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: They are not departing from it, not because of this legislation but because of custom and practice, convention, and the role of the Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments. I am not disagreeing with the principle of what the noble Lord is trying to do, but I think his amendment takes us to a slightly different place and appointments would already be covered by those principles via other legislation and conventions.

Lord Hunt of Wirral: I am very grateful to the Minister for giving us a different dimension which I confess I had not really thought deeply enough about. It is clear to me that I should go away and think more carefully about this. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: moved Amendments Nos. 20 to 23:
	Schedule 1 , page 114, line 5, leave out "Secretary of State" and insert "Lord Chancellor"
	Schedule 1 , page 114, line 6, leave out "Secretary of State" and insert "Lord Chancellor"
	Schedule 1 , page 114, line 7, leave out "Secretary of State" and insert "Lord Chancellor"
	Schedule 1 , page 114, line 9, leave out "Secretary of State" and insert "Lord Chancellor"
	On Question, amendments agreed to.
	[Amendment No. 24 not moved.]

Lord Thomas of Gresford: moved Amendments Nos. 25 to 30:
	Schedule 1 , page 114, line 20, leave out "Secretary of State" and insert "Lord Chancellor"
	Schedule 1 , page 114, line 21, leave out "Secretary of State" and insert "Lord Chancellor"
	Schedule 1 , page 116, line 16, leave out "Secretary of State" and insert "Lord Chancellor"
	Schedule 1 , page 116, line 17, leave out "Secretary of State" and insert "Lord Chancellor"
	Schedule 1 , page 116, line 25, leave out "Secretary of State" and insert "Lord Chancellor"
	Schedule 1 , page 116, line 33, leave out "Secretary of State" and insert "Lord Chancellor"
	On Question, amendments agreed to.
	Schedule 1, as amended, agreed to.
	Clause 3 [The Board's duty to promote the regulatory objectives etc]:

Lord Kingsland: moved Amendment No. 31:
	Clause 3 , page 2, line 24, at end insert—
	"( ) The Board must, so far as is reasonably practicable, act in partnership with the approved regulators."

Lord Kingsland: One of the recommendations of the Joint Committee was that the draft Bill should ensure that, consistent with the Government's policy, lead responsibility should rest with the approved regulators; and that the Legal Services Board should act in partnership with the approved regulators, seeking to resolve differences by agreement wherever possible. In their response to the Joint Committee, the Government said:
	"The Government agrees that the intention of the Legal Services Board should be to work in partnership with the authorised regulators, leaving them with the responsibility for day to day regulation. The Legal Services Board should exercise its powers only where approved regulators are clearly failing".
	The wording of the amendment flows from that initial view of the Joint Committee, subsequently endorsed by the Government in their response.
	Behind the amendment is the fact that the Bill appears to say nothing about the way in which the Legal Services Board should approach its task. But from what the Government have been saying about the Bill as we have moved towards the parliamentary stage, it seems clear—to me, at any rate—that the existing professional bodies should act as the frontline regulators and the Legal Services Board should act in a supervisory role, intervening only if it believes that a frontline regulator is failing in some way or another to fulfil its task. The amendment seeks to reflect that in the Bill.
	In the absence of this amendment, or one like it, in our view the Bill will fail to reflect the balance that the Government say they want to achieve between the frontline regulator doing the hands-on work and the Legal Services Board acting in an overseeing role, intervening only when the frontline regulator fails to fulfil its task. I readily accept that the noble Baroness may feel that an amendment differently worded would better reflect the balance of power between the Legal Services Board and the frontline regulators. I should be perfectly happy to consider—indeed, I would probably accept—any such amendment. I am extremely anxious to hear from the noble Baroness, first, whether she agrees with my interpretation of the relationship between the two and, secondly, whether she is prepared to endorse what the Government said in their response to the Joint Committee or some other form of words which would equally reflect the Government's response. I beg to move.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: My name is attached to this amendment and, of course, we support it from these Benches. It provides a way of ensuring that the Legal Services Board will act with a light touch. It would be extremely unfortunate if a Legal Services Board decided to interfere directly and to constantly make directions and orders and so on to the Law Society, the Bar Council and any other regulatory bodies in such a way as to take over their functions. To us, the idea of acting in partnership is to be commended, and I hope that the Minister will accept it.

Lord Hunt of Wirral: I strongly agree with both my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford. We spent some time in the Joint Committee talking about the phrase just used by the noble Lord: "light touch". We heard that phrase on many occasions. I recall with a fond memory that, when my noble friend and I were in harness together on the Financial Services and Markets Bill, we heard constant reiteration of the words "light touch". Indeed, that has been the principle behind the way in which the Financial Services Authority and its leaders have sought to conduct regulation.
	It is very interesting to hear those who are subjected to statutory regulation by the FSA talk about light touch in theory but heavy bureaucracy in practice. Often the engine room will listen to its leadership but will resort to what is called the "box-ticking phenomenon", in which one suddenly finds oneself enmeshed in a bureaucratic nightmare of regulation. I am sure that the Minister will say that that is far from the intention in setting up the Legal Services Board. Indeed, when the Joint Committee made this recommendation, which has given rise to the amendment, it said that it wanted to accept the Government's policy that lead responsibility should rest with the approved regulators.
	Against that background, we sought to put forward this idea of partnership. The term "partnership" is readily understood: the regulating bodies should act in harness, and the lead regulator should not interfere in a micro-management sense and certainly should not intervene unless there is clear evidence that the approved regulators are failing. In addition, not only should there be clear evidence that they are failing but their failures should have been brought to their notice and directions should have been issued with which they neglected to comply.
	So we are really talking about finding words that will express "light touch" in simple phraseology, and I cannot think of anything better than "act in partnership", unless the Minister can suggest some other words. Certainly, this is very much in line with government policy and all the words that we have heard about light touch. Here is an opportunity for the noble Baroness to do what we have not paid sufficient tribute to her for doing already—that is, to accept amendments. The Minister set a marvellous example to all her ministerial colleagues in listening to the argument and suddenly deciding, "Yes, I will accept". If one is allowed to refer to the Box and the noble Baroness's advisers, I saw a sign of shocked silence when she accepted the previous set of amendments. I am not saying that they were caught by surprise but they just looked surprised. Please may they look surprised yet again by the noble Baroness accepting this amendment.

Lord Neill of Bladen: At Second Reading, I said that it would be a nice idea to get the concept of "light touch" into the Bill. I think that I expressed my feelings about my own incompetence as regards how that could possibly be done. It seems to me that this is about as good a shot as you can have at expressing "light touch". There may be a slight difficulty with the words,
	"must, so far as is reasonably practicable".
	I can see that trouble could develop if the board had established a policy over a particular area or with one part of the profession and if adopting a different policy or some other bit of it was under discussion. There could be potential conflicts ahead where the board might say, "We're very sorry, it just isn't practical. We've taken a position and that is how we are acting". Having said that, I think that this is the best job that one can make of "light touch".

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I was reading some of the comments of my honourable friend Bridget Prentice when she appeared before the Select Committee. She was keen to get rid of overused words such as "light touch". Certainly, in my experience over many years, "partnership" is another of those words that are difficult to define. We all know what we mean, but if we are to include it in the legislation as a duty on the Legal Services Board, we have to be very clear about what we mean.
	I say at the outset that I completely accept the principle that says, "We are creating a regulatory regime in which different people perform different functions and work cohesively together". In a sense, that is one definition of "partnership". I have no objection to being very clear that we want the Legal Services Board and the frontline regulators, if they do not mind me calling them that, to be able to work together consistently. We have had some very useful discussions—for example, yesterday with the Law Society—about how rules are dealt with, which I am keen to pursue. I intend to talk to colleagues about that this week.
	In principle, I have no objection to this at all. I am not keen to put a duty of partnership on the Legal Services Board without a clear definition of what we mean. The noble Lord, Lord Neill, has raised an additional problem that we would have to think about. But I cannot accept the amendment, and I hope that the noble Lord will not refer again to things I do when I should not do them, as I will end up with no job if I am not careful. Perhaps we can try to be explicit about what we mean, which may be more about what I say rather than what we put in to the Bill, to be fair. We have no difficulties about putting out some specific points. I have said to the leadership in the professions, particularly in the Law Society and the Bar Council, although not exclusively to them, that I am very keen and happy for useful things to be said during the passage of the Bill so that matters can be made clear, although we cannot include them in the Bill as they would change the legislation. I hope we can have those discussions so we can be sure that we have clarified matters.
	I agree with the principle of working together in a regulatory regime and of ensuring that the Legal Services Board works effectively with those organisations. But I am not sure about a duty of partnership in statute, because I think that that is different. I am keen to make matters as clear as possible and to consider other options, especially for the future.

Lord Kingsland: I am most grateful to the Minister. I believe she has fully understood the point that we have tried to make. Between now and Report stage, she will reflect on the wording. In those circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Lord Kingsland: moved Amendment No. 32:
	Clause 3 , page 2, line 25, leave out ", so far as is reasonably practicable,"

Lord Kingsland: The Minister might find a certain irony in the fact that in Amendment No. 31 we were urging her to accept an amendment which contained the expression,
	"so far as is reasonably practicable",
	but in Amendment No. 32 we ask her to remove that expression from Clause 3. As I hope will become clear, our approach is wholly rational in relation to both amendments.
	Amendment No. 32 refers to Clause 3, which concerns the Legal Services Board's duty to promote the regulatory objectives set out in Clause 1(1). Clause 3(2) states:
	"The Board must, so far as is reasonably practicable, act in a way—
	"(a) which is compatible with the regulatory objectives, and
	"(b) which the Board considers most appropriate for the purpose of meeting those objectives".
	Our submission is that if one expunges the expression,
	"so far as is reasonably practicable",
	from Clause 3(2), the Government will still get exactly what they want from the clause. We believe that the expression,
	"so far as is reasonably practicable",
	unnecessarily qualifies Clause 1(1). What is the point of setting out the regulatory objectives in Clause 1(1) if one does not require the board to respect them in Clause 3(2)? If the expression is left in the clause, clearly one removes the obligation, in some circumstances, for the board to act in accordance with the regulatory objectives.
	I believe that Clause 3(2)(b) fulfils exactly what the Government ought to want from the clause. The board ought to respect the regulatory objectives, but equally it ought to have the discretion to determine the most appropriate manner for meeting those objectives. As long as the board has discretion to determine the way in which an objective is met, surely that is sufficient. Surely in those circumstances the board can meet its obligation to meet the objective if it has the flexibility to decide the manner in which the objective is met.
	In short, in our view, the expression,
	"so far as is reasonably practicable",
	not only unnecessarily undermines the objectives set out in Clause 1, but is otiose because Clause 3(2)(b) meets all the requirements that the Government could possibly want from the clause. I beg to move.

Lord Maclennan of Rogart: We on these Benches agree with the argument put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland. In our judgment, it is a mistake to give an escape clause of this kind which undermines the force of the objectives set out in Clause 1. I hope that the Minister will be persuaded by the argument that she has already heard.

Lord Hunt of Wirral: I suppose that in this amendment we seek not to lose the ground that we have gained. We have now persuaded the Government to have as one of the regulatory objectives,
	"encouraging an independent, strong, diverse and effective legal profession".
	However, we do not want the words,
	"so far as is reasonably practicable",
	to restrict in some way the victory that we have achieved in persuading the Government to include that regulatory objective. We are really asking the Minister to explain why she thinks that the words,
	"so far as is reasonably practicable",
	are necessary.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I should be delighted to do that. The noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, and I had a brief conversation about this earlier and I have received legal advice. He reasonably pointed out how Clause 3(2)(b) is drafted and said that, by removing the phrase, I would not be creating the problem I feared. I was fearful that the amendment would place an obligation on the board and on regulators to act in a way that was compatible with all of the regulatory objectives all of the time. That is obviously contrary to the principles proposed by Sir David Clementi which we discussed in part earlier this evening regarding the ability of regulators to judge for themselves how to balance one objective against another on a case-by-case basis.
	In the Bill there may be tensions between some of the objectives in some circumstances. A case may arise in future where the objective to improve access to justice is more important, as we discussed on the competition issue, than the objective to promote competition. In such a situation it would be difficult for the Legal Services Board to comply fully with both regulatory objectives. The noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, will agree that in our earlier discussion, when we considered the matter, he thought that Clause 3(2)(b) addressed the issue and that we did not need to look at it again. However, I have now taken advice from lawyers in the department. I shall not read out the advice in detail but will send it to Members of the Committee who have spoken in the debate so that they can look at it properly.
	We do not think that the effect that the noble Lord seeks will be achieved. The problem that I have outlined would be created because of the way in which the Bill is drafted. The result would be that the LSB would have to act in a way that is compatible with the regulatory objectives and that the board considers most appropriate for the purpose of meeting those objectives. "So far as is reasonably practicable" qualifies both of those. They require different things that would be differently affected by no longer being qualified by "so far as is reasonably practicable".
	I shall stop there. However, that is the difficulty. The phrase is qualifying both, but in different ways. We shall discuss the point between now and Report to ensure that I have made that as clear as possible. I understand what the noble Lord seeks to do, but we need the provision in the clause in order to prevent the effect that the noble Lord's amendment would accidentally achieve.

Lord Kingsland: I am most grateful for the Minister's response. I accept that there may be difficulties with my crafting of the amendment; but if the government lawyers say that it does not achieve the result I want, that still leaves us with the problem. The expression "so far as is reasonably practicable" leaves it open to the Legal Services Board to effectively ignore one or other of the objectives in making its decision. That would not be acceptable. So if our amendment does not achieve the objective we wish, we must find some other way of doing so.
	Nor is it in the Government's interest that the Legal Services Board should effectively be able to make a decision by ignoring one of the objectives it is obliged to take into account under the Bill. We must find a solution to that problem. If the amendment does not do so, I hope the Government will go back to their lawyers and find some other way of doing so which does not involve a clause entitling the Legal Services Board to ignore one of its objectives.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: That is the difference. We do not think we have entitled the board to ignore them. We have already said that there will be times when the weighting of different objectives and considerations is essential. For example, some objectives may not be engaged at all. We will look at this again. We do not believe that there is a problem as the noble Lord maintains but we need to convince him of that. We agree with what he is trying to achieve but we think that it is already there.

Lord Kingsland: I am less persuaded than usual by the Minister. However, she knows that I am not going to press the matter to a vote this evening. I look forward to seeing what she does on Report. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: I beg to move that the House do now resume.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
	House resumed.

Business

Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, first, we shall not be returning to the Legal Services Bill tonight. Secondly, there is an error on the Order Paper, limiting the dinner break business to one hour. There is no time limit on the forthcoming debate.

Equality Act (Sexual Orientation) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2006

Lord Morrow: rose to move that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying that the regulations, laid before the House on 24 November, be annulled.

Lord Morrow: My Lords, secondary legislation is supposed to be non-controversial, but these regulations could not be more controversial. It cannot be often that a set of regulations is accused of attacking fundamental religious freedoms. Yet, that is what is being said here. The newspapers in Northern Ireland are full of controversy about the regulations. The High Court has granted permission for a judicial review of the regulations, and there is even a public demonstration against them outside Parliament as we speak tonight.
	Noble Lords will know that the Merits Committee drew the special attention of the House to the regulations in its third report on 7 December. The committee made particular reference to the controversy. It pointed out that 290 of the 373 consultation responses that the Government received on the regulations expressed concern about the effect on religious liberty. The committee thinks that the House will be interested in,
	"the manner in which the Department have sought to allay the concerns which have been expressed by consultation respondents".
	The fact is that they have failed to allay those concerns, as I will show.
	Noble Lords may have realised that we do not have the benefit today of a report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. That is not because the committee is unconcerned—quite the contrary. I understand that the committee has asked the Government a series of searching questions about the regulations and has drawn attention to typographical errors. They have even asked whether the regulations are ultra vires under Section 24 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, which prohibits Ministers from any action that breaches freedom of religion. I asked the Government to delay today's debate to allow the committee to complete its report, but my request was denied.
	What do the regulations do? The sexual orientation regulations, which came into force on 1 January, cover the provision of goods, facilities and services, education, public authorities and the disposal of property. The regulations outlaw, first, discrimination and, secondly, harassment on the ground of sexual orientation. The scope of the regulations is vast, covering businesses and voluntary organisations. The phrase "goods, facilities and services" is very broad, covering many different activities. The regulations do not cover employment, which is dealt with in other legislation.
	In most circumstances, the new laws will not be problematic. Homosexual people are entitled to be able to buy their groceries and have their bins emptied, just like everyone else—but the regulations go much further. They make it possible for homosexual activists to sue people who disagree with a homosexual lifestyle because of their religious beliefs. Bed and breakfast owners and Christian old people's homes will be sued for not giving a double bed to homosexual civil partners. Wedding photographers will be made to pay compensation for not taking bookings for civil partnership ceremonies. Christians in business could even be sued for sharing their faith with customers. Worst of all, they require religious organisations to choose between obedience to God and obedience to the state.
	The press is reporting that a first breach of the law could incur fines of between £500 and £5,000. Subsequent serious breaches could attract damages of up to £25,000. Regulation 3(3) sets out the new harassment law. The law is breached if someone can show that their dignity has been violated or that someone has created an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for them. At its lowest, "harassment" can constitute an "offensive environment" for a homosexual. Noble Lords should note that Regulation 3(4) makes it clear that the court must have particular regard to the perception of the complainant. Furthermore, under Regulation 52, the burden of proof is reversed so that the person accused of harassment will have to prove their innocence.
	The Government's Equality Bill proposed the creation of a harassment law in almost exactly the same terms as that, but on the ground of religion. In November 2005, this House voted to remove it from the Bill. It was considered too broad, too controversial and a threat to freedom of speech. The Government responded by asking the discrimination law review to look at it. That review has not yet reported. No solution has yet been put forward by the many experts involved in that review. Yet the Northern Ireland Office seems to think that it has the wisdom of Solomon and has slipped in the harassment provisions. It has done so despite indicating in its consultation paper that it was not minded to do so. I should say that the consultation itself was defective in that it did not give enough time for members of the public to respond and ignored most of the responses.
	Furthermore, the Government claim that concerns about religious liberty are met by Regulation 16. It provides certain exemptions for religious organisations from a discrimination law. I underline this: what it does not do is protect religious organisations from the harassment law. That has major implications for religious liberty and freedom of speech. For example, if church membership were denied to a homosexual and the minister explained in orthodox, theological terms the religious belief that justified the denial, it would be open to the person to bring a claim for harassment. He could complain that the explanation had the effect of,
	"violating ... dignity; or creating an intimidating ... humiliating or offensive environment".
	Regulation 16(4)(a) states:
	"Nothing in these Regulations shall make it unlawful for a minister to restrict participation in activities carried on in the performance of his functions".
	That exemption covers the refusal by the minister. It does not cover any subsequent explanations. If he quotes from the Bible, he could be in trouble. What could be more fundamental than the right to decide who is a member of your church? Yet that is jeopardised by the regulations.
	As I mentioned, the regulations are subject to judicial review by several Christian groups. The Christian Institute and six denominations have successfully applied for permission for a judicial review that is to be heard in early March. They are represented by James Dingemans QC who argues that the regulations interfere with the manifestation of religious belief and bring about a situation where one set of rights trumps another.
	One might have hoped for some humility from Government in the face of these allegations, some willingness to reconsider. Instead, Ministers have been engaged in knocking down straw men. I have here a letter dated 13 December from Mr David Hanson, the Minister of State for Northern Ireland, which says that bed and breakfast places can still refuse to give a double bed to a homosexual couple so long as they also refuse double beds to unmarried heterosexual couples, but what about the issue of civil partnerships? The consultation paper repeatedly declared the Government's intention to ensure that civil partners receive the same treatment as married couples. So, if a Christian bed and breakfast establishment refused a double room to a homosexual couple living in a civil partnership, they could be sued and so in effect closed down purely because of their religious beliefs.
	The Minister also says that the harassment provisions will not stop a Christian bookshop promoting marriage. That is very good. But what he does not say is what happens when members of staff in a Christian bookshop share the Gospel with a homosexual customer. If they urge the customer to repent and turn to Christ—as in Northern Ireland they might often do—they could easily find themselves on the wrong end of a legal action for harassment. The bookshop would not want to discriminate in any way—it would happily sell the person, sell anyone, a book—but it can still be sued for harassment.
	Education will also be affected. The Minister says that the regulations apply only to access to benefits and not the curriculum. I believe that he is mistaken. There is absolutely nothing in the wording that excludes the curriculum from the scope of litigation.
	In Northern Ireland, the Fair Employment and Treatment Order 1998 outlaws discrimination on the ground of religion in the provision of goods and services. It provides broad exceptions for schools which could cover the curriculum. This means that it will not be possible to litigate using these laws over any religious content in the school curriculum. However, the sexual orientation regulations do not exempt the curriculum. That creates an imbalance in legal rights. Discrimination law could be used to promote homosexuality but not to object to it. A pupil who identifies as homosexual can sue a teacher who says in an RE lesson that sex outside of marriage is wrong, but a religious pupil cannot sue if homosexuality is promoted in an English lesson.
	There is another glaring hole in the exceptions for religious groups. Regulation 16(8) states that the exception does not apply where an organisation contracts with the state to provide a particular service. This means that religious bodies providing a service on behalf of the state must fully comply with the new laws. So a Christian old people's home receiving state funding for some places which refused a double room to two civil partners would be unlawfully discriminating. The home is faced with a choice: defend legal actions or turn down state funding. Either way, the costs would mean that the home will close.
	In a recent letter to The Times dated 30 November 2006, Meg Munn MP claims that the sexual orientation regulations are necessary as,
	"lesbian or bisexual people are denied access to essential healthcare".
	If that indeed were the case, this sort of discrimination could be dealt with easily under current guidance by the General Medical Council without the need to have SORs implemented. Those who work in the NHS inform me that they are not aware of any incidents of lesbians or bisexuals being denied access to essential healthcare. Recently, the Equality Unit, DTI, was contacted but was unable to provide substantial evidence regarding this. There appears to be only very limited anecdotal evidence. I contend that the Government have failed to provide robust evidence to support the claim that homosexual individuals are denied access to essential healthcare. As that claim seems to be one of the main bases for introducing SORs, the burden of responsibility rests with the Minister to produce robust and convincing evidence that homosexual individuals are denied access to essential healthcare. It is most important that the Government ensure that the proposed SORs will not be abused by malicious claims as has happened in other countries. I give the example of Canada.
	I am firmly convinced that the freedom to manifest one's religion is seriously undermined. The regulations threaten to override the consciences and free speech of Christians and others who object to homosexual practice. This contravenes Articles 9 and 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights. However, the Government have achieved one thing: they have united Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter in opposition to these SORs. I am not aware of any—I underline the word "any"—church denomination, large or small, in Northern Ireland that supports the regulations. As a matter of fact, I confidently stand here tonight and tell noble Lords that there is none. Not a single denomination, small or large, in Northern Ireland supports these regulations. I beg to move.
	Moved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying that the regulations, laid before the House on 24 November, be annulled. 3rd Report from the Merits Committee.—(Lord Morrow.)

Lord Smith of Finsbury: My Lords, I support these regulations. I have to confess that I am somewhat puzzled by the arguments that have been advanced by the noble Lord and by many of the campaigners outside this House. It seems to me in my simplistic way that what they are arguing for is quite simply the right to discriminate and the right to harass. And those arguments are being made in name of Christianity? I find that very difficult to understand.
	Much of the material that has been put before us in relation to these regulations speaks of a balance of rights. Yes, of course, the whole business of politics and government and the discussions in this House are about balancing rights. I believe very strongly that people have a right to believe that homosexuality is in some way wrong. I believe very strongly that people have a right to hold views that may be bigoted and discriminatory. What I do not believe is that they have the right to put those beliefs into action in a way that affects adversely the life and livelihood of other human beings. These regulations very simply seek to prevent that.
	This is not just about freedom of conscience. It is about freedom of action and where the limits to that freedom of action have to rest in order to ensure that other people in our society can be properly protected. These regulations are very simply putting non-discrimination into practice. If in much of the material that has been written about these matters we had simply substituted the word "black" for the word "homosexual", I wonder whether we would be giving house room to some of these arguments.
	I speak as someone who happens to be a gay man. I also happen to be a Christian. My Christianity is about being inclusive, not about being exclusive. It is about being accepting of others. It is about celebrating the differences between all the wonderful people that God created in this crazy world of ours.
	There is an old story about a black man in the deep south of the United States who climbs up the steps of a church in order to go in and worship. He climbs up the steps on a very hot, sunny, summer afternoon. He gets to the door of the church and the burly man at the doors says, "I'm sorry. You can't come in here. It's not for the likes of you". Very sorrowfully, the black man turns round and walks back down the steps. Halfway down, God speaks to him and says, "Why are you so sad?". He says, "Well, Lord, I wanted to go into the church to worship you, and they won't let me in". "It's all right", says God, "I've been trying to get in there for years, and they won't let me in either". It seems to me that perhaps some of those who are arguing against these regulations should reflect just a little on that story and on the lessons from it.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern: My Lords, we all certainly need to reflect quite a lot on our attitudes and conduct. As I see it, these regulations for Northern Ireland, dealing, as they do, with sexual orientation, differ considerably from any of the legislation outlawing discrimination on other grounds. Let me take a moment to explain why.
	The sexual orientation regulations are not confined in their effect to the tendency of a person—orientation means, I think, tendency. These regulations are not about outlawing a particular tendency. They do more than that. They state that people who give services, supply goods or provide facilities must not discriminate on the ground of sexual orientation. The regulations imply that if those people interact with people of that orientation, they must also be prepared to allow them, if appropriate, to use the facilities that they provide for the purpose of homosexual practice. That is quite different from the other types of discrimination. It is the practice of homosexual acts that some Christians—but not the noble Lord who has just spoken—and considerable numbers of people of other major religions believe is wrong and sinful, and they do not think that they can conscientiously do anything to promote or further it.
	I shall take one illustration, that of a person who provides bed and breakfast for people in his house. In that situation, if he receives a same-sex couple in a double room in his house, he is liable to be convinced of the fact that he is allowing a sinful practice of which he disapproves. That is the difference between this type of regulation and the discrimination regulations with which we are familiar and which most, if not all, Christians and other religious people support wholeheartedly. These regulations are different in that respect. It is interesting to notice that the Merits of Statutory Instruments Committee considered that there were difficult issues in these regulations that required the consideration of the House. I believe that that was because these regulations have a feature different from the regulations of former times to which we are accustomed.

Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, is it not the case that these regulations mirror what is already in law in relation to sexual orientation in employment and occupation, which adopts exactly the same approach, and that all that is prohibited is treating people less favourably on the ground of their sexual orientation, just like their race or their gender? Can the noble and learned Lord deal with those two points?

Lord Mackay of Clashfern: My Lords, the employment regulations outlaw discrimination on the ground of sexual orientation; that is, the tendency to favour a particular mode of sexual conduct. It is a tendency, not a practice. The difference between those regulations and these regulations is that these regulations, although they come under the heading of sexual orientation regulations, would make it unlawful for a person to refuse to accept a same-sex couple into their boarding house. I am much too old to offer any such facilities and the regulations are unlikely to affect me in any way whatever; I am thinking of a person who has a religious conviction of the kind that I have just mentioned and who does not believe that it is right in conscience to accept people into their house who would use it to practise a way of life that they considered sinful. That is the essence of the problem. The regulations seek to override their conscientious objection to that behaviour in their home.
	The adoption agencies are another area of difficulty. There may be a regulation that helps to exempt adoption agencies that are charities—at least it does so on one construction of it—but there is a difficulty if an adoption agency declines to place children with same-sex couples on the ground of religious conviction. Again, that might be outlawed by the regulations. The regulations are not particularly easy to construe and I am not going to attempt to do so, because they are quite complicated, but this is the essence of the matter as I see it—differentiating these regulations and the kind with which we are familiar.

Lord Avebury: My Lords, if the hypothetical person who runs a boarding house has such an objection to this particular sin, should they not prohibit all the other seven deadly sins while somebody is in the bedroom of their house?

Lord Mackay of Clashfern: My Lords, that would perhaps be a counsel of perfection which the noble Lord would like to advise, but it is not part of the regulations.

Lord Eames: My Lords, perhaps I may presume to introduce one other aspect to this debate that is of great importance to the people of Northern Ireland. Shortly before my retirement on 31 December as Archbishop of Armagh and Primate of All Ireland, I found that it was my duty to join episcopal colleagues in drawing the attention of the general public to the tremendous concern that we as bishops felt about the manner in which the process of legislating in this place and in the other place for Northern Ireland was being followed. We had to make our concerns public for the simple reason that we believed that some of the process that was being adopted by Her Majesty's Government in relation to Northern Ireland was in every sense a denial of rights. This debate, while it has so far centred on doctrine and personal religious beliefs, is an example of what can happen when the Government follow a certain process through Orders in Council and regulations, as is the case this evening.
	What I am speaking of has nothing to with party politics or denominations. It is something that should be of genuine concern to this House, particularly to those who do not come from Northern Ireland, but who in England and Wales will shortly, so we are informed, have to engage in a debate of this nature.
	Over a wide range of subjects, not least this present one, current procedures place some of us in an impossible situation, where we agree with large sections of legislation—where we agree with the spirit of it and recognise that it has to do with human dignity and equality—but cannot do otherwise than challenge other parts of it. The process to which I am referring denies us the opportunity to do that. To support such proposals in total denies our rights to question or amend.
	I shall illustrate this dilemma, which I and others feel tonight, with reference to some current legislation that has, or will, come before this House. The main churches in Northern Ireland—the Church of Ireland and the Roman Catholic, Presbyterian and Methodist churches—received the consultation documentation on 29 July and a response was demanded by 25 September. Noble Lords will recognise that this was a major holiday period, when anything akin to a full response was impossible. If the views of the main churches were of interest to the Government and were genuinely sought on such an important and sensitive issue as this, which has to do with dignity, equality and justice, how were we expected to respond with integrity? Consequently, we find ourselves this evening supporting much, but unable to press our concerns on parts that are unclear and a source of deep anxiety to many Christians in Northern Ireland.
	Of equal importance to this concern on the consultative process on Orders in Council are the following examples. A huge document was received for consultation by the churches on charities review. Views were invited, we were told, on 7 July and expected by 13 October. On the adoption law, views were invited on 4 July and a response demanded by 1 September. A mammoth amount of paperwork on education was received on 28 November for a response by 19 January. In addition, at any one time, my colleagues and my staff were dealing with several such requests at the one time. How can those of us wishing to support fair and detailed analysis of important legislation, but who are confronted by such restricted timescales, convince people of the merits of good government?
	As noble Lords know, unlike most legislation, neither Orders in Council nor regulations can be amended and they are denied full parliamentary scrutiny as I understand it. Surely where such situations arise there is an additional legal and moral burden on the Government to be seen to provide reasonable additional consultation, in the name of good government. In Northern Ireland, where the onus is placed on this House and the other place in the absence of a local Assembly, surely that moral responsibility is even more important. I believe that the Government should have instructed civil servants along those lines.
	It is also obvious that broadly similar legislation applying separately to Northern Ireland and to the rest of the United Kingdom is accorded different response times in different parts of the kingdom, to the disadvantage of the people of Northern Ireland. It prompts me to ask: what if the regulations proposed for England and Wales ultimately differ in any manner from those proposed for Northern Ireland? What will be the result for the United Kingdom as a whole? That is a very serious possibility, which I ask this House to take into consideration.
	The churches play a vital role in charities, adoption procedures, education and now equality issues. I believe that we do not have to defend the role that we have played or the voice that we have given to the population on these issues. These issues have an impact on the life of the voluntary sector and the wider community, and much of the legislation on those other areas is to be welcomed; equally, however, much of it is controversial and deserves much closer scrutiny than is possible under our present procedures.
	It gives me, after my years of public service, no pleasure to make those points. But I appeal to the Government to recognise the dilemmas that the current procedure presents to many of us, including myself. Should it be the case—I say, should it be the case—that fast-tracking controversial legislation is simply a lever to force the restoration of devolved government for Northern Ireland, I would have very serious concerns. Be that as it may, a serious consequence of the current methods of making law for Northern Ireland is to leave open the way for such perceptions to prosper. In my years of experience, if I have learnt anything, it is that—I think that those noble Lords who have served in the Province would agree with me—perceptions can become realities overnight. In the interests of good government, that is surely highly undesirable.
	This debate illustrates the consequences of that lack of scrutiny. It poses very serious issues, irrespective of the detail of the subject matter covered by the regulations. I suggest that the way in which this is being done, in any democracy such as ours, poses very serious issues, and I for one felt bound to express those concerns to the House.

Baroness Blood: My Lords, a number of Peers, perhaps better qualified to speak than I am, wish to contribute, so I shall be brief. I support the regulations, not because I support homosexuals and lesbians, or because I have no morals or Christian faith—I hope that I have both—but because I believe in equality. It is something that I have worked for all my life, whether in religion, colour, disability, gender or class, and I see no difference in affording the same equality in sexual orientation. There has been quite a lot of talk in Northern Ireland—the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, has referred to it—about bed and breakfast accommodation where two men or two women might share a bedroom, something that I have done numerous times. Having attended numerous conferences over the years, I have shared a bedroom with another woman, but I cannot remember ever being asked what I was going to do in the room.
	There is also the suggestion that, if these regulations were passed, it would be un-Christian and all Christian people in Northern Ireland would be outraged. But I have in my hand an article written by a Christian organisation whose headline is, "New legislation not to be feared by Christians". Indeed, as any of your Lordships who were watching "Heaven and Earth" on television last Sunday will know, this legislation was one of the topics on the programme. Viewers were asked to e-mail and text in their views. The majority of viewers who responded were in favour of the legislation. So it is wide of the mark to suggest that all right-thinking people are opposed to it.
	I agree with the noble and most reverend Lord, Lord Eames, that there is a lot of uneasiness about the way that this is being done. But if you look at Northern Ireland, you think of the Equality Commission, the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission, Help the Aged and Age Concern, which all strongly support these regulations.
	Although I can cite all these organisations that support the legislation, there is a body of people who feel deeply offended by it and I support their right to oppose it. Across Northern Ireland, even among those who support the regulations, there is deep anger and a feeling of unease at the speed with which they are being put through. As we have heard, the consultation period was short and requests from groups for extensions were denied, even though that was granted in Great Britain. So it is easy to understand the feeling in Northern Ireland that the people there are being used as guinea pigs.
	Given the nature of the regulations, would not the Northern Ireland Office have been better advised to take more time over them? Indeed, could they not have been brought in at the same time as the legislation for Great Britain, which I understand is to be April 2007? This kind of consultation leaves Northern Ireland feeling insulted, not consulted.
	I concede that the Government have taken on board some of the suggestions—the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, referred to some of them—that came out of the short consultation period and that some changes have been made and some safeguards have been put in. But I ask the Minister two questions. First, why was the consultation period shorter than the one in Great Britain? Secondly—and the noble and most reverend Lord, Lord Eames, has already referred to this—if and when the regulations for Great Britain come to be debated and they are amended or indeed not passed, where would that leave the regulations for Northern Ireland? Would they be withdrawn?

Lord Moran: My Lords, we must thank my noble friend Lord Morrow for giving us an opportunity to pass judgment on these highly controversial regulations, which came into force in Northern Ireland nine days ago without any parliamentary debate or vote. They have been rushed through, after the briefest possible consultation during the summer holidays—as the noble and most reverend Lord, Lord Eames, made clear in his deeply impressive speech—and have been introduced under direct rule powers so that Northern Ireland's democratically elected representatives have had no opportunity to consider them. Had they done so, I should not have been surprised if Sinn Fein and the DUP had joined forces to oppose them.
	The regulations include a widely drawn harassment law, which my noble friend Lord Morrow has already described. He explained its implications, which would have been very serious. Those responsible for drawing it up might have remembered that a similar harassment law covering religion was rejected in a decisive vote by this House on the Third Reading of the Equality Bill last November on an amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill. Moreover there is, as I understand it, already a firm criminal law which protects everyone—the Protection from Harassment (Northern Ireland) Order 1997.
	It is clear that the new regulations, while seeking quite reasonably to meet the concerns of lesbians, gay men and bisexuals, may have damaging effects on Christians and Christian churches of all denominations, Christian schools, Christian adoption agencies, Christian printers and Christian conference centres. They may be asked to provide services that involve them in condoning or promoting a lifestyle that conflicts with their fundamental beliefs about marriage and family life. It has been pointed out that the regulations may be used to discriminate against those who deeply believe that homosexual activity is morally wrong.
	It is not surprising that eminent churchmen—both Catholics and Anglicans, including leaders of black churches—have spoken out strongly against the regulations. The Catholic Archbishop of Birmingham has said:
	"Those who are elected to fashion our laws are not elected to be our moral tutors. They have no mandate or competence to do so".
	Jews and Muslims seem to be equally concerned.
	The regulations will certainly have an adverse effect on freedom of speech. A Christian teacher would, it appears, risk prosecution if he or she were to teach the importance of marriage and add that sexual partnerships outside marriage should be avoided.
	Noble Lords will be aware that in addition to the judicial review that has now been decided, some Christian lawyers have made a plea to the Queen, and the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments has also put a number of questions to the Government and will be meeting to discuss the regulations on 24 January.
	I have for some time thought that a substantial proportion of the laws that we in this House are asked to pass result from pressure from the homosexual lobby, while other minorities are ignored. For example, nine years ago, the Government commissioned a study of salmon and freshwater fisheries. An excellent report resulted that was welcomed by everyone, including the Government. The recommendations for actions by fishery organisations were quickly followed up. The Government promised to introduce primary legislation to deal with the rest when parliamentary time permitted. That was six years ago and nothing has happened, but year after year the Government reaffirmed their commitment to legislate. A rather sad letter that Defra sent to all the organisations concerned just a year ago states:
	"Although we have bid for a Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Bill in most years since the review ... we have never been successful in getting a slot for it. For the current session, it made the reserve list (albeit at No. 47) but was eventually dropped because of pressure of other government business".
	A year later, there is still no sign of the Bill. Now, too, we see that the marine Bill—something of the greatest importance to this country—did not as expected make it into the Queen's Speech. Perhaps it, too, will suffer prolonged delay.
	Three and a half million anglers and uncounted environmentalists are given short shrift by this Government, but things are very different when the Government deal with the gay lobby. I asked the Library how many major statutes impacting on gay rights have passed since 1997. It gave me a list of eight. Lesbians, gay men and bisexuals have indeed been handsomely treated at the cost of other interests. There have been so many of these Bills that the Government seem now to have decided to take major steps to increase gay rights by avoiding primary legislation and using regulations like those now before us as a quicker and less difficult alternative.
	Not only do Ministers such as Mr Hain push on this agenda; even civil servants are drawn into the campaign. A recent report says that proposals by officials in the Home Office—where else?—recommends that schools that lack enthusiasm for rooting out "homophobic" prejudice should be reported to the police, that there should be "hate crime co-ordinators" and that gay lobby groups should set up third-party reporting centres, seemingly a resurrection of the "Cooper's snoopers" we heard of during the war.
	One is bound to ask oneself why this Government are apparently so obsessed with extending the rights and privileges of gays. People may begin to wonder if they are planning to make homosexuality compulsory. This never-ending stream of measures for a particular lobby is surely likely to produce a backlash and make life for gays worse rather than better.
	I have no doubt that we should support the Prayer so that the Northern Ireland regulations can be suspended and, one hopes, amended drastically or perhaps tidied away and best forgotten, while similar action is taken on the regulations proposed for Great Britain next April.

Lord Tebbit: My Lords, I begin by saying something that may give comfort or cause concern to the noble Lord, Lord Smith. I must tell him that, should he come one dark and stormy evening knocking at the door of my house seeking shelter, he would be most welcome. He would be most civilly invited in and I hope that we would enjoy each other's company, because this is not quite as he would have us believe. He put the proposition that we should think about this legislation substituting the word "black" for "homosexual". Of course, that sounds an interesting proposition, but I have to point out that "black" is about being. Sexual orientation is also about being. We would not wish to discriminate against people for being black or on grounds of their sexual orientation. The concerns being expressed this evening are primarily about sodomy rather than about sexual orientation—that is, doing not being.
	As an old politician who likes to think he had reasonable experience in government, I cannot think of a single word to add from the point of view of good government to what has been said by the noble and most reverend Lord, Lord Eames. He said it in a way which should be a lesson to all of us who practise, have practised or will in future practise the arts of government.
	Some things about this legislation give me concern. First, there is the question of those exemptions which are granted. In shorthand, one could say that to qualify for these exemptions one would need to establish that one had, or belonged to a group which had, a profound religious objection to some of these matters. What has happened to liberal values? Why is a thoughtful agnostic or atheist to be compelled to do that to which these regulations would give thoughtful deists a waiver? Is that not itself a prime example of discrimination?
	Perhaps we should have some legislation to protect those who are not deists in the way protection is being given to those who are of a religious frame of mind. Is it not possible for such a person to hold the view that it is wrong for the state to compel him to refrain from arguing that sodomy is a social ill or to conscript him or his children into aiding and abetting it—if that is the right expression? Is it not possible for a person without religious beliefs to reasonably hold the view that it is wrong for the state to compel him to refrain from making arguments which he could make were he a member of a religious group?
	I have other questions. I take it that it will be the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, who gets the short straw again tonight in answering the debate. Would, let us say, a woman patient in a hospital who declined to be treated or examined by an openly lesbian doctor be guilty of harassment? Could she be sued for such a thing, particularly if she had no religious beliefs about it, merely personal ones?
	The noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, recently tabled some Questions for Written Answer. He asked Her Majesty's Government:
	"Whether the Equality Act (Sexual Orientation) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2006 would require a family-run bed and breakfast to let out a double room to a transsexual couple, even if the family consider it to be in the best interests of their children to refuse to allow such a situation in their own home".—[Official Report, 13/12/06; col. WA198.]
	The reply from the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, was brief and to the point: "No". However, paragraph 7.3 of the Explanatory Memorandum to the regulations states:
	"The Regulations will also impact on hotel and bed and breakfast owners, who will not be able to deny a same sex couple accommodation on the basis of their sexual orientation".
	Which is correct, the answer "no" or the explanation in the Explanatory Memorandum?
	The noble Lord, Lord Lester, also asked whether the regulations,
	"would require all schools actively to promote homosexual civil partnerships to children from primary school age to the same degree that they teach the importance of marriage".
	The noble Lord, Lord Rooker, replied:
	"No ... That is rightly a matter for the Department of Education, Northern Ireland".—[Official Report, 13/12/06; col. WA 198.]
	That is one of the nicest passes, although I think perhaps a forward pass, that I have seen anywhere this side of Twickenham.
	Surely the truth of the matter is that these regulations do not so much prohibit or require that certain things should or should not be done but provide a route by which aggrieved parties may seek legal redress if another party should do or fail to do certain things. It is rather akin to the position that would occur if I should be so foolish as to libel the noble Lord, Lord Lester. He would be able to seek redress swiftly in the courts.
	Just as the laws of libel are sometimes used by the rich and powerful to intimidate into silence their less rich and powerful critics, so these regulations would leave perfectly innocent people in fear of legal action by the fanatical wings of the lesbian and gay pressure groups. Whatever the intention of those who drafted the regulations, they are bound to create not only a shadow or umbra of prohibitions but a vastly wider penumbra of the fear of prosecution.
	We have only to reflect on the fear of the Derbyshire police recently that they might lay themselves open to action under the Human Rights Act should they publish photographs of two murderers who had walked out of prison and the later confident assertion of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor that there was no such risk. When we think about that, we realise the climate of fear that can be created by legislation of the sort that we are discussing today. After all, the Derbyshire police presumably have access to better legal advice than the unfortunate proprietor of a bed and breakfast establishment in Northern Ireland.
	For those reasons, I am left full of disquiet about the nature of the regulations as well as full of very strong views on the manner in which this legislation is being foisted on the people of Northern Ireland at a time when, we hope, it will not be long before they have devolved government again.

Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for mentioning me so many times in the context of questioning Ministers, but will he explain whether he takes the same view of claimants aggrieved by sex, disability, age, race or religious discrimination as he does of victims of sexual orientation discrimination? Does he take the view that that whole body of legislation should be repealed on the ground that it would be coercive and intimidatory to those who practise discrimination, or is it only homosexuals that he would deprive of relief?

Lord Tebbit: My Lords, the noble Lord is again going off on a wrong track. This is about the requirement for, for example, a bed and breakfast establishment proprietor to facilitate the act of sodomy. It is not about discrimination against a homosexual couple. That is the point of which the noble Lord, Lord Lester, has uncharacteristically lost sight.

Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon: My Lords, I find it difficult to understand the point that the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, is making and I should be grateful if he could elucidate on it further. He seems to repeat the point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, that somehow or other it would be improper to discriminate against someone on the ground of orientation but proper to discriminate on the ground of action. Surely the whole basis of our law is that you do not discriminate against people on the ground of action, provided that that action is legal, which in this case it is. So I cannot see the difference.

Lord Tebbit: My Lords, let me put it another way for the noble Lord. He is supporting legislation tonight that would make it possible for two young men—chavs, shall we call them perhaps—to go with their girlfriends into a gay bar and then claim that they had been discriminated against or humiliated by the remarks or behaviour of people in that gay bar. Is that what we want to come out of this? It is not what I want to come out of this, but that is what will be the effect of it and that is why I object to it.

Viscount Brookeborough: My Lords, I rise briefly to support what the noble and most reverend Lord, Lord Eames, said. This is not about attitudes; this is about the process, and the process we are going through tonight is even more unique than normal. What is the effect of an order in Northern Ireland, followed by a Bill for the remainder of the United Kingdom? Normally orders in Northern Ireland are either unique to Northern Ireland or they follow legislation in the remainder of the United Kingdom. This process is unique in a different way, in supporting an order that came in on 1 January, because the order is already in place, written on the Government's instructions, without amendment and without consultation. We have in place an order that will be followed by a Bill—which may be introduced in another place first—that is extremely unlikely not to be amended on its way through. That is what is wrong as far as Northern Ireland is concerned. We will have in place an order that is substantially different from that in the remainder of the United Kingdom. There is no question about it. If this and another place do their job there is bound to be some amendment, purely to its written English if nothing else.
	We have heard about guest houses. I am, as the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, put it, the "unfortunate proprietor" of a guest house in Northern Ireland—though I do not think that I am unfortunate. I have had a few noble Lords to stay and I quite enjoyed it; whether they did is another matter. Please note that I do not have children and we are not—and here I shall be accused of discrimination—a very children-friendly place because we do not have a nursery or children's toys. The point is this: a guest house is not a hotel; nor is it the local ironmonger's or a travel agency. It is a place to which people go—very often as couples—to get away for a happy weekend together.
	More than anything, a guest house is unique because it involves the guests in the family. They are not in room 214 where they can press a button—if they did so at Colebrook they would not get anything. They are among the family. If there are children, they can talk to the children. They may even have children as guests themselves and will involve themselves with those children. It may not be the religious belief of people who own guest houses, but purely their determination, that their children may grow up to be able to make a decision on whether they are influenced by activities of which their parents do not necessarily approve. This is absolutely vital.

Lord Alli: My Lords, would the noble Lord answer two questions for me? Would he allow me to stay in his guest house on the basis of my colour? And would he allow me and my partner to stay in his guest house on the basis of our sexual orientation?

Viscount Brookeborough: My Lords, I would be delighted for the noble Lord to stay on the basis of both his colour and his sexual orientation. There is absolutely no question about it. Please do come and stay and I will charge you appropriately. It will be precisely the same as for everybody else, I assure you. However, this is not about that. This is about having people among your family. That is the important thing. I accept entirely what the noble Baroness, Lady Blood, said about her working stays in guest houses. I suggest that she and her roommate would not normally carry on throughout the day the way that a couple would if they were away for a very special weekend alone. That is slightly different, but I accept that it may, under certain circumstances, happen, and it has happened in our house.
	I am going to finish now. First, however, this is unique to Northern Ireland not only because it is an Order in Council; it is unique because it is being done prior to other legislation coming into effect in England. Secondly, the Government are introducing into a family something from which it is surely the right of the parents to protect their children until they are at an age at which they can decide for themselves.

The Lord Bishop of Southwell and Nottingham: My Lords, I would like to pick up on some of the scenes that I have heard this evening in the Chamber, and particularly I refer to the earlier scenes enunciated by the noble and most reverend Lord, Lord Eames. The regulations do not apply to England. The Church of England has already submitted its views on the important points that need to be safeguarded in the parallel regulations for Great Britain. We very much welcome the time and the trouble that the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government is taking to consider all the representations that she has received.
	The regulations might have been a great deal more satisfactory if Ministers and officials in Northern Ireland had also taken more time to engage in detail with the churches and others there about them. As a result, we find ourselves having to consider regulations that, while in some respects perfectly sensible, are in other respects unclear and cause a deep anxiety—and surely that anxiety is patently obvious to anyone who is listening—to Christians and other people of faith.
	For example, when Parliament has no opportunity to make amendments, it frankly beggars belief that provisions on harassment were inserted at the last minute and without warning. It is not enough to say that harassment is a bad thing, which manifestly it is. The question is how to avoid making any new provisions so subjective that they act as a curb on the legitimate expression of opinion to which others take offence. It would be interesting to hear from the Minister why it has been thought necessary to proceed with such haste in one part of the United Kingdom when the Government's sensible decision for elsewhere has been to study the matter at greater length as part of the discrimination law review.
	The regulations clearly demonstrate the need to strike a fair balance between the rights of homosexual people to be treated with dignity and respect and the rights of Christians and other people of faith to manifest their religious beliefs, including those in relation to sexual conduct. In the view of a number of us on these Benches, these hastily prepared regulations fail to do that. Instead, they run the risk of facing significant numbers of people, as we have heard earlier in the debate, with the choice between complying with the law or with their religiously informed conscience. Whether that is the intention of the Secretary of State, or simply the unintended consequence of regulations produced with inadequate consultation, is unclear. But it causes many of us great concern.
	The Government have, of course, sought to be helpful by including a set of special provisions for churches and other religious organisations in Regulation 16. Most Christian denominations and other faiths are not able in good conscience to make their places of worship available to those who wish, for example, to have their same-sex relationships or partnerships blessed and celebrated. Nor are they willing to make their church halls available to organisations that seek to promote the acceptance of homosexual relationships as equivalent to heterosexual ones. Nor can many Christians accept that children in church schools should be taught that same-sex relationships are just as valid as heterosexual relationships based on marriage.
	The intention behind Regulation 16 is therefore helpful, but it appears to permit restrictions only if imposed,
	"in respect of a person on the ground of his sexual orientation".
	All the mainstream Christian churches are clear that they have no wish to impose restrictions on the ground of sexual orientation as opposed to conduct. That being so, it is far from clear that the varied restrictions that religious organisations might wish to impose—namely, on the basis of homosexual conduct—would in fact be protected. It would also be helpful to have the Minister's confirmation that they are intended to be.
	Also of concern, in terms of exceptions, is what is expressly left out. Regulation 11 imposes a very wide general duty on educational establishments, and yet there is no special provision for faith schools. No one would seek to argue for an exemption in relation, for example, to admissions policies, but what about the teaching in relation to marriage? Whether in the classroom or in the context of collective worship, is a Roman Catholic school that teaches children the traditional Catholic view to be at risk of legal challenge? If that is not the Government's intention, the regulation should have made that position clearer. The potential for bringing such claims risks putting schools in an unnecessarily difficult position. There is absolutely no case for this when in practice the whole area of sex and relationship education is being handled sensitively in faith schools within the present, very carefully balanced statutory framework. In the regulations for Great Britain, it is important that this matter is put beyond doubt. In the mean time, I can only express very real concern that the regulations for Northern Ireland do not deal with this matter satisfactorily.
	In conclusion, there is much in these regulations that is uncontentious and a very proper protection against injustice, but overall they fail to strike that careful balance, which Parliament has been historically good at striking, that is needed particularly in areas where conflicting rights are engaged. They have all the hallmarks of haste and insufficient engagement, both at policy level and on detailed drafting with the churches. Whatever the outcome of tonight's debate, it is crucial that the serious issues raised by Christian and other religious leaders are adequately dealt with before the regulations for the rest of the United Kingdom are finalised.

Baroness Harris of Richmond: My Lords, it is extremely rare to see so many of your Lordships in the Chamber when we are debating matters to do with Northern Ireland. I think perhaps tonight I understand why. It is very good to see the interest being taken tonight. I will be very brief.
	I have had from Stonewall two examples which may help your Lordships make up your minds about which way you will vote. One gay couple from Northern Ireland wrote to Stonewall recently saying why they were turned away late at night from a country hotel which they had booked months before in order to attend a sister's wedding. They found the experience utterly humiliating. Stonewall also says that it heard from a woman who went to see her GP, having suffered from work-related stress. When the woman mentioned her lesbian partner in conversation, she was told that she was engaging in unnatural, inhuman practices and that it was none too surprising that she would be suffering from mental distress as a consequence. The unnatural, inhuman practices were being perpetrated by the GP. It deeply saddens me to have to say that. It is essential that these regulations are accepted by Parliament and that Northern Ireland should lead the way towards a tolerant, caring and humane society.

Baroness O'Cathain: My Lords, it seems extraordinary to me that we are now debating secondary legislation that is so flawed that the High Court has granted permission for a judicial review on the question of whether this secondary legislation breaches the Human Rights Act. Surely it would have been better to await the outcome of that review, fixed for 1 and 2 March, instead of charging blindly on.
	I am also surprised that we have been required to debate these regulations today before the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments has been able to produce its report. Given that it clearly has questions about the regulations, surely it would have been better if we had waited a couple of weeks for that report.
	The Merits Committee has expressed a certain amount of doubt, and the Joint Committee could have shed further light on the comments of the Merits Committee, but we have been deprived of that light by the Government's indecent haste to get this debate out of the way. One of the members of that committee, Mr David Simpson MP, has said publicly:
	"The Government's timetabling makes a mockery of the parliamentary process. How are MPs supposed to make an informed decision about Sexual Orientation Regulations before the committee has had a chance to report? We have serious questions about how the regulations could interfere with religious liberty under the Human Rights Act. Peter Hain is rushing these regulations onto the statute book and seems prepared to sideline the parliamentary process in order to do so".
	It is quite clear that throughout this whole process the Government have been prepared to ride roughshod over everybody. As the noble and most reverend Lord, Lord Eames, and others have noted, the consultation timetable was quite unacceptable—a period of eight weeks which included the entire month of August, the main holiday season in Northern Ireland, therefore in effect four weeks. The Government's own guidelines state that public consultation should be held over a standard minimum period of 12 weeks—not four weeks. In the rest of the United Kingdom, the consultation lasted 12 weeks, from 13 March to 5 June 2006. Why was Northern Ireland's consultation in effect one third of that?
	The regulations were made on 8 November 2006, just six weeks and two days after the public consultation closed on 25 September. Do the Government really expect us to believe that six weeks and two days is long enough to consider the 373 responses and to address the complex issues raised?
	In the rest of the United Kingdom, the making of the regulations has been postponed while issues raised during the public consultation are being addressed. The Government have postponed the implementation of the regulations on the mainland until April 2007. Their consultation ended three and a half months before that of Northern Ireland.
	Let us presume that the regulations will be made around mid-February. That constitutes 250 days between the end of the consultation and the making of the regulations, compared with 44 days in Northern Ireland. How does that stack up? It is an insult to Northern Ireland that the time between the end of the consultation and the making of the regulations is around one-fifth of that in the rest of the United Kingdom.
	The right honourable Ruth Kelly was emphatic that following the Great Britain consultation and the concerns raised, it was important to,
	"make sure that there is effective protection from discrimination while ensuring that people have the right to religious freedom".
	Were the issues raised by the Great Britain regulations much more complex than those raised in Northern Ireland? Or is this yet another case of "Northern Ireland—so what"?

Lord Alli: My Lords, the legislation that we discuss changes but the arguments remain the same.
	I thank my noble friend Lady Blood for her very powerful speech. Some may have thought that the whole of Northern Ireland would oppose these laws, and my noble friend made it very clear that that was not the case.
	I would not normally speak on regulations affecting Northern Ireland, but as one of the few gay Peers in your Lordships' House, I know only too well how essential these regulations are. I argued passionately for them last year, and I pay particular tribute to the Government for ensuring that they have come forward. The widespread incidence of unfair treatment on the ground of sexual orientation led to this House supporting that amendment and voting to outlaw this kind of discrimination. I warned then that there would come a time when extending these provisions from religious groups which have these protections to lesbian and gay men would find opposition from those same religious groups which argued so successfully for the original legislation.
	Look outside this building tonight, listen to the small but vocal crowd, and imagine how it feels to walk through that crowd and see so much prejudice directed towards you simply because you are gay, simply because you are yourself, simply because you exist. It is rank hypocrisy to object to this order, having argued for the very same protection for religious groups only a few months ago.
	I was prompted to speak tonight by a number of letters I have received from gay men and women living in Northern Ireland, urging this House to support the regulations. If your Lordships will permit me, I shall read a tiny extract from one of those letters:
	"What do the goods and services protections mean to me? Quite simply, they mean that as a citizen of Northern Ireland who happens to be gay, I will be afforded the same rights and civil liberties that others already enjoy ... I will be protected ... from people who wish to discriminate against me because I am gay. These regulations mean that I need no longer fear being denied hospital treatment. No longer will my partner and I be refused a double room together, causing the two of us such degrading embarrassment".
	This is about real people and real people's lives and their right not to be discriminated against. It is about the politics of prejudice. Rather too often, that is forgotten in the sometimes fanciful claims made about the impact of these new laws. They are fair and balanced, and they give gay people in Northern Ireland the same level of protection that we all want for ourselves. I urge the noble Lord not to press his Motion to annul this important legislation, which will improve people's lives. If he does not listen to that plea, I ask this House to do what it has done on many other occasions, of which I am incredibly proud: to vote against it, reject his call and demonstrate overwhelmingly to the people of Northern Ireland and beyond that this House believes in fairness, justice and equal rights for all.

Earl Ferrers: My Lords, there have been some very impressive speeches this evening. This is a sensitive matter and it concerns Northern Ireland. For those reasons, I feel hesitant to dip my feet into the water, but I do so because I think that the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, is right to pray against these regulations.
	The Government are concerned that people should not be discriminated against because of their sexual orientation. That is a perfectly reasonable point of view, but in their determination to see that that does not happen they are introducing regulations that will grossly discriminate against other people. As has been pointed out, the regulations fail to distinguish between same-sex attraction and homosexual activity. It is perfectly possible to show respect for the dignity of people who are attracted to a person of the same sex, but it is quite another thing to approve of homosexual activity. The churches do not do so and plenty of people who adhere to those churches do not do so either.
	The sexual orientation of a customer may be irrelevant to, for example, a shop assistant or a car mechanic, but it can be of considerable importance and relevance to others. We have heard the examples of the person who lets out a room and refuses to allow a gay couple to take it, the photographer who refuses to photograph a civil partnership ceremony and the printer who refuses to print a leaflet advertising a gay ceremony. They could all be prosecuted. These regulations are installing new rights for homosexual people which override the existing rights of others who are perfectly entitled to their views and their religious opinions.
	Part of the anxiety is due to the provisions in the regulations which make harassment on the grounds of sexual orientation illegal. Harassment is a subjective matter, depending on the perception of the person bringing the claim. If a person feels that his dignity has been violated and that someone has created a hostile, humiliating or offensive environment, he can sue. An organisation which is sued will be involved with legal costs in defending itself and possibly compensation. If that happens more than once or twice, such repeated actions can result in the business going into liquidation. That cannot be right. The Government said that it was not appropriate to legislate for harassment within the regulations, but that is precisely what they have done.
	In analysing the results of the consultation, the Government say that there seems to be some misunderstanding about what they intend. With the greatest respect, it does not matter what the Government intend; it is what the law says that matters; it is what the local authority official or the local lawyer reads into what is written that matters. They will say, "The regulations say this and so we are right to do that", or, worse, "The regulations say this, so we must do that". They are the ones who will enforce—a word which the Government love—the regulations. I believe that there is enough in the content of the regulations to make them quite inappropriate for passing into law.
	What about the circumstances of their introduction?

Lord Smith of Finsbury: My Lords, before the noble Earl leaves the point about content, does he agree with the existing law of this country which says that harassment against an individual on grounds of race is wrong? Does he also, therefore, agree that harassment against an individual on grounds of his sexual orientation should be wrong?

Earl Ferrers: My Lords, it is not as simple as that, as the noble Lord knows. The Government said it was an improper vehicle by which to introduce harassment because harassment is a perception by one person of another. That is why I think it is wrong for it to be done in this case.
	It is surprising, as the noble and right reverand Lord, Lord Eames, and others have said, that the consultation period lasted only eight weeks, even though it should have been 12 weeks. It has been pointed out that that was far too short a time, particularly as it was during the summer months. The Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments is still considering these regulations, despite the fact that they came into operation on 1 January. It would have been more courteous and more correct to have waited for the views of the Joint Committee, otherwise what is the point of having a Joint Committee?
	Is not the real reason for all this that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland was determined to get these regulations in place in Northern Ireland before Stormont takes over power, before 24 March? One wonders why the Secretary of State did not let Stormont make up its own mind on these delicate matters which relate to the people of Northern Ireland. As the unionists have more seats, he knew that, left to Stormont, the regulations would not have been introduced. One might then say, "Let Stormont remove the regulations, if that is what it wants to do, as soon as it takes power". But that could not happen because—I am not familiar with all the niceties of Northern Ireland politics—Sinn Fein and the SDLP have a lock over these matters, and they would never agree to the regulations being removed.
	So, the Secretary of State is forcing these regulations on the people of Northern Ireland against their wishes, against the wishes of those who represent them and while the Secretary of State is still in a position to do so. Having done that, what will the Government do? They will say that now the regulations are in operation in Northern Ireland, we can have the same regulations for England and Wales. It is important that these regulations should not criminalise the practice of a person's faith, but they will. They tread over religious sensitivities and they create fear. The way in which they have been introduced is highly undesirable. For those reasons I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, will continue with his Prayer.

Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, we on these Benches warmly welcome these regulations. We entirely support the Government's position. We very much hope that if this Prayer against the regulations is moved to a vote, it will be roundly defeated. I shall try briefly not to repeat what others have said, but to add new points.
	I found the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Finsbury, deeply impressive. He has made it unnecessary for me to say much of what I would otherwise have said. I am a former special adviser to the Standing Advisory Commission on Human Rights in Northern Ireland, and I have great affection for its people—even though, particularly when talking about matters of sex, some of them sometimes nearly drive me demented. That is almost as bad as talking about religion.
	It has not been said tonight that Northern Ireland has been a pacesetter for anti-discrimination legislation, often leading the way with the rest of the United Kingdom following. I am old enough to remember the Van Straubenzee report, which led to the fair employment legislation that was much stronger than what I was able to accomplish at the Home Office in the mid-1970s. Under the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher, that was strengthened greatly in 1989; we had nothing comparable to it. Remarkably, in Section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, there is a provision compelling the promotion of equality of opportunity between people of different sexual orientation, among other things. We do not have that, of course. There is already a human rights commission in Northern Ireland, and a single equality commission. Work has progressed on a single equality Bill from a fairly early stage. It is not at all unusual for Northern Ireland to be first with excellent civil rights legislation on discrimination.
	These regulations must be read in context. No noble Lord has yet done so. First, there is the international context, now part of our system through the Human Rights Act 1998. These regulations, as the Human Rights Act commands, must be read and given effect, if possible, in a way compatible with fundamental human rights and freedoms. Those fundamental rights include freedom of religion, conscience, speech, association and non-discrimination. Therefore, when courts have to interpret and apply regulations, they must make quite sure that they do not disproportionately or excessively encroach upon those fundamental freedoms. Some points made by noble Lords on free speech or freedom of religion are simply points about the importance of those rights, against which these regulations, like all regulations, must, if possible, be read.
	Although freedom of religion is a vital freedom, as are freedom of conscience and freedom of speech, so is equal treatment without discrimination. The European Convention on Human Rights provides that everyone is entitled to the enjoyment of the rights in that convention without discrimination, covering, for example, sexual orientation. It applies, for example, to education. There must be no discrimination based on sexual orientation in education, otherwise Article 2 of the first protocol of the convention, read with Article 14, would be breached.
	That is relevant because if the Government did not introduce these regulations in Northern Ireland and comparable regulations in the rest of the United Kingdom and there were then a victim of, say, sexual orientation discrimination in access to education, the UK would be in breach of the European convention. In particular, it would be in breach of Article 13, which says that there must be an effective national remedy. I hope the Minister will confirm that the United Kingdom, in introducing these regulations, is among other things giving effect to our international obligations. The same will apply when other regulations—not a primary Bill—are later introduced in the rest of the United Kingdom.
	That is not all. The Northern Ireland Act, as noble Lords from Northern Ireland will know better than I do, does not devolve responsibility for compliance with the European Convention on Human Rights. That matter was specifically reserved to central government. Therefore, even the great Stormont, when it is able to function again, does not have the power to act in a way that over-rides or disregards human rights. The Secretary of State may, if necessary, deal with the matter. If Stormont were to repeal these regulations I am not at all sure whether that would not of itself involve a breach of the human rights legislation and the European convention.
	We are not dealing in a vacuum so far as concerns earlier legislation. The Republic of Ireland enacted similar legislation as long ago as 2000 in the Equal Status Act. It covered sexual orientation discrimination and harassment in similarly loose and vague terms. I am not aware that there has been any abuse or that any problem has arisen in the Irish Republic, a point made on 11 December when the transitional Assembly had that extraordinary debate on these regulations. The DUP was isolated politically in that debate, the other Northern Ireland political parties speaking in favour of the regulations in the main, while the DUP had its commitment against the regulations. Points were made again and again about, for example, the situation in the Irish Republic.
	The regulations are also not in a vacuum so far as concerns our own law. In 2003 the employment equality regulations dealing with sexual orientation were passed in virtually identical form. All that the Government have done is to extend them to education, goods, services, facilities and public sector duties. In the way that they have done for gender, race and religion, they have now done the same for sexual orientation. So far as I am aware, there has been no problem in the interpretation and application of the 2003 regulations. No noble Lord today has suggested to the contrary.
	I am not an uncritical supporter of what the Government are doing. On behalf of my party I should make that clear. In the first place, although it is now academic, we believe that there should have been a single equality Bill which put together all the different strands and could have been, therefore, a coherent piece of legislation rather than bits and pieces in regulations one after the other. In that way, the public and Members of both Houses might have understood better the pattern of legislation. But that is water under the bridge.
	I am also concerned, as are other noble Lords, about the vaguely defined concept of harassment. As has been said, I moved successfully the amendment to the then Equality Bill which removed the concept of religious harassment, mainly because of my concern for free speech and the divisiveness of having one religion pitted against another in the county court with no filter leading to compensatory remedies. That seems mischievous and to do no good. I very much hope that our support today for the harassment provisions in these regulations is not interpreted by the Government as a green light for support by us for doing the same thing with religious harassment. Religious harassment is different. It implicates free speech and religious practices in a completely different way. The reason that I think that the Government were right in the consultation to change their minds as they did about sexual orientation harassment becoming a civil wrong is because, as the noble Lord, Lord Smith, among others, pointed out, when you harass a person because they are gay you are harassing them for something with which they are born. When you harass a woman because she is a woman, it is because of her gender. When you harass someone because of their race, it is because of their birthright. Because harassment against gays is a particularly widespread social evil in this country, it seems to me that the Government were right during the consultation to change their minds. They were open-minded. They had reservations to begin with.
	The Government have been criticised this evening about the consultation, and it will be for the Minister to answer the criticisms that have been made. However, in fairness, I would like to point out that the consultation led the Government to widen the exceptions in favour of freedom of religion. They therefore used the consultation process in an open-minded way. I believe that they gave too many concessions to faith groups, just as they did in the employment equality regulations, but that is again water under the bridge. It will be for courts in due course to decide whether what has been done is compatible with the Human Rights Act, but that is for the future.
	The noble Baroness, Lady O'Cathain, mentioned the judicial review proceeding. That has nothing to do with the matter we are concerned with this evening. The judge in Northern Ireland refused an application on judicial review for an interim order to hold up making the regulations law. He said that he was willing to hear arguments of all kinds in March, but was not willing to impede the legislative process. We are therefore completely free this evening to take our own view of the matter.
	Finally, no noble Lord has mentioned the extraordinary debate that took place in the transitional Assembly on 11 December. A great deal has been said about the position of the churches, but what about the position of the politicians, the elected representatives of the people of Northern Ireland? I urge your Lordships to read that rather dispiriting debate, and if noble Lords do, they will see that the Alliance Party, the SDLP, Sinn Fein and the Progressive Unionist Party all spoke in favour of the regulations. It was the DUP that opposed them. There was a tied vote so the regulations stood. We have the benefit not only of the consultation but of the consultation with the elected representatives of the people of Northern Ireland. Therefore, let it not be said that we are somehow now riding roughshod. It is not our fault that the politicians in Northern Ireland have not got their act together sufficiently to be able to have their Assembly back again, but the sooner they do that, the better. Meanwhile, we are here to protect fundamental rights, and I hope that this evening we will defeat the Motion roundly.

Lord Glentoran: My Lords, it is always disconcerting to follow such an elegant speaker as the noble Lord, Lord Lester. We have heard some very passionate, well argued speeches in the House tonight. This party is not whipped; we have a free vote. My view, and this party's point of view, is that there are some key issues relating to the way in which in recent times, under the present Secretary of State, the Government have been attempting to handle Northern Ireland legislation. Those who listen to Northern Ireland debates on a regular basis will know exactly what I am talking about and will have heard me say it before.
	However, to make the point, where we come from, this is not a political issue. There are strongly held views, and we accept that, so I do not intend to detain the House for very long. That said, these regulations have aroused considerable controversy inside and outside Parliament, and the reasons why have been made clear tonight by the many speakers from different angles and different points of view. All the speakers, including, to some extent, the noble Lord, Lord Lester, have qualms about whether the Government have got this right.
	At this stage, I have several questions to which I want precise answers from the Minister—I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Rooker. Before that, I shall say something that has already been said, but I shall repeat it. It relates to the way in which these regulations have been introduced in Northern Ireland. As with the new rating system, there is a very strong feeling back home in Northern Ireland that Northern Ireland is being used as a testing ground for Great Britain. I see the noble Baroness, Lady Blood, nodding.
	As the Government have no votes in Northern Ireland and, deplorably, no intention of seeking any, they simply continue to run Northern Ireland by diktat, irrespective of local opinion. Of course, the standard government reply is that politicians should agree on the restoration of the Assembly—well, they have not helped it much recently—yet I see no reason why these regulations had to be rushed through in Northern Ireland with minimal consultation prior to the possible restoration of the Assembly on 26 March. In case anybody wonders why I said that the Government have not helped very much, the Prime Minister's outburst in the Irish Times was not helpful at all and led Ian Paisley to contradict him at a very delicate time.
	I ask noble Lords to contrast what the Government are doing in Northern Ireland with the position in England and Wales. First, we were given a consultation period of eight weeks in Northern Ireland; in England, it was 12 weeks. Here in England, the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government delayed, as has already been said, the introduction of the regulations so that they could be properly debated. In the other place, she said:
	"It is only right that we take the time to consider properly such a complex issue"—
	and we have heard how complex it is tonight—
	"so that we provide protection against discrimination in a way that is effective and appropriate and which gets the balance right so that people are able to hold religious views and beliefs".—[Official Report, Commons, 19/10/06; col. 1014.]
	Nobody could disagree with those good intentions, yet the Government have sought to push the equivalent regulations for Northern Ireland through Parliament under the negative resolution procedure, thus attempting to deny any debate whatever. That is the arrogance of Mr Hain.
	It is due only to the pressure put on the Government by my honourable friend the shadow Northern Ireland Secretary and parliamentary colleagues from Northern Ireland that the regulations for Northern Ireland are being debated at all, after they have effectively been introduced. Once again, Northern Ireland is being treated shabbily and arrogantly by this Government when it comes to the method of introducing legislation.
	I shall raise a few points about the regulations over which there is a genuine lack of understanding and clarity, and which have caused concern. The first is about the provisions relating to harassment, which has been at the top of most speakers' agenda tonight. The Minister will know that this matter has exercised a number of people, and it was raised on the radio this morning by my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern.
	The Government initially indicated that they were not inclined to include these provisions. Will the noble Lord tell us what moved the Secretary of State once again to change his mind on a statement that he had made only a few days previously? Considerable concern has been expressed about what precisely might constitute harassment. The noble Lord, Lord Lester, was eloquent on that subject, but, I believe, had some doubts as to how these provisions might be interpreted. The very broad way in which they are drafted also leaves open the possibility of a flood of test cases. For example, could a minister or priest who refused to serve communion to somebody on the ground that homosexual acts are sinful be sued for harassment? Will the Minister tell us how he thinks that can be avoided? What safeguards exist for people who simply act in accordance with what they sincerely believe to be the literal truth of the Gospel?
	The Government talk about getting the balance right between effective protection from discrimination and the rights of people to their sincerely held religious beliefs and convictions. But what safeguards are there, to use an example that has already been given, for a church-based adoption society that refuses to place a child for adoption with a gay or lesbian couple? What about a church-run housing society that refuses a double room to a gay or lesbian couple? What about the position of faith-based schools, where there is potential for conflict with the regulations due to sincerely held religious beliefs and convictions?
	Much emphasis has been placed on the position of those running guest houses, about which we have heard a lot tonight. What about guest houses whose owners refuse to let rooms to any unmarried couple? For the purposes of these regulations, can they still refuse to let rooms to people who are unmarried but in a civil partnership? Again, so much in the legislation is vague and will inevitably lead to test cases. Knowing the population in Northern Ireland, I can assure noble Lords that there will be those who want to test it, push it and try it.
	What will be the position of church halls or Northern Ireland's Orange halls? Will they be exempt on the basis of sincerely held religious beliefs and convictions? Many church halls and Orange halls in Northern Ireland are hired out to non-church groups for dance classes and keep fit, to cite two examples, and political meetings are regularly held in Orange halls. But neither church halls nor Orange halls would be hired out to groups or people who are fundamentally at odds with the organisations' Christian ethos or sincerely held religious beliefs and convictions. I fear that that is yet more scope for litigation.
	As I made clear earlier, these regulations are the subject of a free vote for my party. Nothing I have said today on their detail should be taken to indicate a party view. That said, my personal view is that the way in which these regulations have been handled is yet another example of the Government's deaf, uncaring arrogance to the people of Northern Ireland. The current regulations should be abandoned and the Government should develop new regulations that properly balance sexual orientation and religious liberty rights following a proper consultation process, followed up with full parliamentary debate, as proposed by the Minister in another place when referring to proposed legislation for England, to which I have already referred. The noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough, made it very clear that we could find ourselves in the ridiculous position of being a small part of the United Kingdom with a totally different set of standards and rules from those that will come out of the legislative process for the rest of the United Kingdom.
	This has been a wonderful debate. It has been a great honour that so many people have taken time to speak on what is at base a Northern Ireland issue but one that has clearly touched the whole community of the kingdom. I have sought to raise a few concerns expressed to me and many colleagues in both Houses. I look forward to the Minister's response.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, I am most grateful for noble Lords' contributions and will do my level best to answer all their specific questions. I do not intend to speak for long, but I wish to put on record the detailed answers to those questions. So much of what has been said outside this House about the regulations is inaccurate. Some things have been said in ignorance of what has actually happened regarding these regulations. It is important to get it right.
	I wish to start with some procedural points. This is not the Government riding roughshod over Northern Ireland. It is a negative resolution for one reason only: direct rule. If this resolution were being taken in the Northern Ireland Assembly, it would be a draft affirmative resolution. Under the rules of direct rule, primary legislation ends up as an Order in Council—unsatisfactory, but that is the rule—and an affirmative resolution ends up as a negative resolution. It will be put slightly differently in the other place for GB legislation—as it is not direct rule, the procedure is slightly different. We are following the rules set out for direct rule. We wish there was not direct rule, but that is in the hands of Northern Ireland politicians not the Government.
	Only the noble Lord, Lord Lester, referred to the fact that these regulations—which are what we are debating tonight, not an idea or resolution—were debated for a half day in the transitional Assembly in Northern Ireland on 11 December, less than a month ago. There is a full Hansard record of that debate. The motion was similar to what it is tonight—that is, to withdraw the regulations and leave the issue to be determined by the Assembly. It was effectively a motion to nullify. Out of 108 Members, the vote was 39 to 39. As such it was a dead heat and therefore was not carried; there was no majority.
	As the noble Lord, Lord Lester, said, the mix of parties in favour of the regulations included the mainly nationalist parties. It also included the late David Ervine. There was a mix of party-political views in favour of these regulations by the elected politicians, the very people who we keep saying ought to make the decisions in Northern Ireland and get back and do the full job they are paid for. That happened and nobody referred to it in this debate. Indeed, one or two noble Lords said it was a tragedy and that the elected politicians of Northern Ireland had not had an opportunity to debate this. It is there on the record. I have to make that absolutely clear.
	One of the points made related to procedure. There are some misnomers as, since I left the other place, procedures have changed and I do not always keep up with them. The Great Britain regulations—they will cover England, Scotland and Wales—will be brought forward in due course. The plan was to do both together. The sequence of timing last summer was such that they would be published together and go through the Houses together. As I will explain in a moment, the level of response for Great Britain was far greater than in Northern Ireland. In Northern Ireland—I am not devaluing anyone's contribution—the 400 consultation responses were all basically on one very narrow issue, so it was much easier. Because of the agreement the Government have with the CBI and business to bring in secondary legislation and regulations on two specific dates in the year, if we miss the slot for October-November we are then on the next slot, which is around April. That was done for all regulations at the request of business, so that we were not bringing different statutory instruments out every week of the year impinging on the business community. It was part of a deregulatory business, so that is the reason for that consequence of dates.
	I thank everyone who has spoken today. I just want to put on record—

Lord Trimble: My Lords, the Minister has made the point that the Great Britain regulations were brought in in parallel. They have now been held back for further consultation. The possibility exists that that consultation might result in changes to the GB regulations. If that happens, can the Minister assure us that the Northern Ireland regulations will then be amended to be brought into line with the GB regulations and thus keep the parity that was there at the outset?

Lord Rooker: My Lords, the Secretary of State has made that abundantly clear on more than one occasion. It is the intention, whatever the case may be, to have broad parity between the regulations within the United Kingdom so there should not be any major difficulty with that.
	Before I come to the set piece and answer some of the questions I would just like to run by the House some of the issues these regulations do not cover. They do not impact on the taught curriculum in schools in Northern Ireland—that is a matter for the Department of Education. The regulations cannot lead to the promotion of homosexuality in schools. They are concerned not with what is taught in schools but with ensuring fair and equal access to education and the facilities and services associated with it. It is not the Government's intention to attack religious ethos.

Lord Tebbit: Would the regulations allow a charge of harassment to be brought against an education authority by an aggrieved parent?

Lord Rooker: My Lords, children can be removed from such lessons anyway, so, if parents are so aggrieved, their children would not be in the lessons in the first place.

Lord Tebbit: No.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, it would depend on the merits and the circumstances of the case. There is a reasonable test for a responsible person. The courts would make a judgment on that, but these regulations do not impact on the curriculum of what is taught in class—I make that absolutely clear. That is a completely separate issue so far as the law in Northern Ireland is concerned. It is not the Government's intention to attack religious ethos, teaching or practice, and the regulations contain exceptions that protect the doctrinal nature of religious observance. We have applied an exception to the regulations intended to ensure that matters of a doctrinal nature are protected.
	I was asked a specific question by the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, about offering the sacrament. The right of a minister to refuse communion is absolutely protected under Regulations 16(3)(b) and 16(4)(a). It is quite clear. The answer is that they would be protected. It is there in the regulations. We have heard criticisms from the noble Lord, Lord Lester, that the exemptions have gone much further than he would have wished.
	In terms of accommodation, I know that there has not been a massive distinction in this, but there has been a throwaway line about "your own home". No one can be forced to live with someone they do not wish to live with. Subject to certain conditions on the size of the property and the permanent residence of the property, that will be protected in the regulations. However, if you are running a commercial enterprise in the United Kingdom, you follow normal rules and you do not discriminate on religion, colour, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation. That is what the regulations are designed for.
	One further point was raised about the consultation. The four main churches had meetings with Ministers on no fewer than three occasions relating to the regulations. Whatever the distance and timing of the consultation—eight weeks—the four main churches had meetings on three separate occasions. Nobody can argue that their main concerns were not met. Indeed, the press release put out by the Evangelical Alliance on 23 November states that it,
	"acknowledges the work done by the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister in listening to the concerns of religious organisations and subsequently providing exemptions to ensure that core doctrinal beliefs are not undermined".
	The idea that churches and those of faith have been ignored and not been party to consultation or discussion does not stand up to examination.
	The regulations have been drafted to allow for the views and opinions of religious groups and organisations to be protected where it is necessary to comply with doctrine. We do not accept the arguments put forward that churches will be forced to admit as members people whom they do not wish to belong to their church where that desire is motivated by their sincerely held religious views. Regulation 16 is specific on that point: no church or other religious group will as a result of the regulations be required to bless civil partnerships or undertake any sacramental or other core religious practice or observance that conflicts with their beliefs. That could not be more specific in dealing with the myths. I thought that it was a sin to tell a lie.

Noble Lords: Hear, hear!

Lord Rooker: My Lords, I am not accusing anyone in this House of telling a lie, but it is what has been written and said outside.
	Much has been said about bookshops. There was an example given here tonight about the hypothetical Christian businessman or women who will be required to act against his or her conscience when the regulations are enacted. The Government think that it would be wrong to elevate the human rights of one group over and above those of another group. We are trying to get equality of rights to stop discrimination. That is central to the regulations. It does not matter whether it is a bookshop, if it is a commercial bookshop. If a group in the voluntary sector sets itself up in business to do other things—running a mother and toddlers' group, for example—and invites the public to use its building to bring in income and to embrace the community, would it refuse access to a toddler who had two mums? That is nonsense; it is a commercial activity and that would be a breach of these regulations. It does not affect their doctrinal beliefs, the giving of communion or anything like that. If people open up a business, whatever the business they are bound by the laws of the state, passed by Parliament, to exclude discrimination. That is the essence of what we want to do.
	Many noble Lords raised the issue of harassment, and I accept from the debates we have had in this House in the short time that I have been here that, for many people, it is contentious. It is difficult for some people to grasp, as the problems we have had here show. It is wrong to say that we have ignored the will of the people of Northern Ireland and introduced some sweeping new offence. We have not done that. The definition applied to harassment in these regulations is exactly the same as that applied in other anti-discrimination legislation. It is subject, as elsewhere, to a test of reasonableness.
	It is not enough, as has been suggested by some speeches, for a person to allege that they were placed in an environment which they found intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive. You have got to go far beyond that. In all cases, a court will decide, taking account of all the relevant circumstances and the facts of the case, whether a reasonable man or woman would have felt harassed in such an environment. While the Government cannot legislate to prevent malicious prosecutions, we believe the test is a stringent one. In addition, we still have the benefits of the Human Rights Act and the need for proportionality and propriety. The courts will have to determine whether such issues fall within the Act. In the end we have to rely on the good sense of the judiciary and the safeguards applied in the regulations.
	I shall try to answer some of the detailed questions asked. The issue of harassment was raised in consultation. The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, asked about that. There was an issue about what we were minded to do. There were lots of discussions as well as written consultations over that period.
	The noble and most reverend Lord, Lord Eames, made a powerful speech. I think the whole House would agree with his point about procedures used for legislation relating to Northern Ireland. We have made the commitment—I repeat it now though I do not have the exact words in front of me—that if there is no devolution on 26 March then we will come forward with a different set of proposals for how we deal with Northern Ireland legislation in this House and in the other place. That is our firm commitment and we do not resile from it. We do not want to publish a Plan B because we want Plan A to succeed, but that it is our commitment. The noble and most reverend Lord raised all the issues that are wrong and defective about the way we do it now—I say defective rather than wrong. We are in a difficult position now, but I repeat the point about meeting the churches on three occasions.
	The noble Baroness, Lady Blood, raised the issue of polls. A MORI poll prior to the consultation showed that 80 per cent plus agreed that discrimination in the provision of goods and services on the grounds of sexual orientation was not acceptable. That was a MORI poll. We have the elected politicians refusing to nullify the regulations and an 80 per cent MORI poll.
	As I said about the eight-week period, this was chosen to meet the GB commitments to lay the orders at the same time. I hope I have explained that satisfactorily.
	I listened to the interview with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, and read his powerful piece in the Telegraph this morning, as I also read Polly Toynbee's equally powerful piece in the Guardian. These regulations are not concerned with homosexual practice or the facilitation of such acts. They concern only sexual orientation. Nothing prevents people having a belief. These regulations are designed to capture where they manifest that belief by discriminating against people. It is as simple and clear cut as that.
	On whether the regulations will be withdrawn if the English regulations are not passed, the answer is no. The Secretary of State has the power under the Equality Act 2006 and believes this is required for Northern Ireland—where there is support for it.
	On the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, people are entitled to air their views on any subject but not to discriminate. That is the central issue of the regulations.
	The noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, also raised points about the Written Questions from the noble Lord, Lord Lester, and the Answers that he received. Transexuality is actually dealt with under the gender laws and is not covered by these regulations, so the Answers that he quoted and the Explanatory Notes are both correct. There is no contradiction there.
	The noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, asked about the lady patient not being too keen on the lesbian doctor. The fact of the matter is that the doctor and the hospital are providing the services, not the patient; so the issue is not covered by the regulations. So there is no issue about that. I am glad to be asked the question, because it is one of those myths that would be out and running before you know it and which we can knock on the head straightaway.
	The noble Lord, Lord Lester, referred to the judicial review. The judicial review application was for a suspension of these regulations from 1 January. The judge refused that and said, "No, Parliament should take its course. That is where the regulations are being debated and I will have a look at this in a few weeks' time, in March". That is what he intends to do.
	I have covered most of the questions—and I am conscious of the time. We have had a good debate and I do not want to repeat things that others have said. We are not riding roughshod over Parliament. There is a separate issue to be dealt with here for GB and Northern Ireland; it has to be dealt with differently.
	I do not apologise for saying this because I have said it so often before, but while direct rule continues and the Northern Ireland politicians refuse to take their responsibilities and go back, we shall not cease the pace of reform. The Secretary of State made it clear that the pace will quicken if they do not go back. We have made it abundantly clear that the status quo is not an option. We want devolution back on 26 March. If it is not back then, we will come forward with a better way in which to deal with legislation in Northern Ireland—and I have to say that we will have to deal with a new system for dealing with legislation for Northern Ireland for quite a long time if devolution does not take place on 26 March. Therefore, I hope that these regulations will be approved.

Lord Morrow: My Lords, I have listened very intently to all that has been said this evening. I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in what has been a most useful debate, which brings some degree of democracy to the imposition of these regulations. I have listened intently to what the Minister said in his reply. I am not saying that he has convinced me, because that would be a lie. Quite frankly, he has not.
	I shall deal with one or two of the issues that the Minister raised. He makes much of the fact that the Government are not riding roughshod over the people of Northern Ireland. He went on to state that in fact the Assembly has already debated this issue and tied on a vote; but of course what he did not say is that the Assembly has absolutely no powers whatever to do anything.

A noble Lord: That is your fault.

Lord Morrow: It might be as much yours, too.
	I shall give an example. We are presently going through the process—

Lord Smith of Clifton: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way, but is it in order for him to go on making this speech? He has two choices—either to test the opinion of the House after what has been a long debate or to beg leave to withdraw the Motion.

Lord Morrow: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for bringing that to my attention. It is my intention to test the opinion of the House on this issue.

On Question, Whether the said Motion shall be agreed to?
	Their Lordships divided: Contents, 68; Not-Contents, 199.

Resolved in the negative, and Motion disagreed to accordingly.
	House adjourned at 10.01 pm.